Is my 6yo a CF? (Light-hearted!)

[Larrythecat]

I'm conflicted. My 6yo (DD) is polite with please and thank yous, but you give her a penny and she will ask for a pound (literally). On the one hand, I think this is a great skill to have for when she is older, I picture her negotiating salaries at her annual PDR, or convincing a colleague to do that job she doesn't really like, or getting the best cuts at the butcher. I don't know. But then, right now, I feel like stopping her and restraining that skill for the sake of playdates and good relationship with other mums. I feel she can be a tiny bit of a CF sometimes, but at the same time I'm secretly proud of her negotiating skills and I'm not sure I should stop her! Plus the dynamics of gender here really play a part. I feel it looks worse because she's a girl and assertiveness is not really rewarded at this age...
Examples (loosely adapted, for anonymity): DD goes to playdate. She asks if she can get random plastic toy from their house, playdate mum says yes. DD upgrades her request to another toy that is nicer. "Oh, actually, can I take this instead?"
DD is present when someone invites little brother to party. DD puts puppy eyes and asks if she can go. We say no and that she can do something nice that day instead. Party mum feels sorry and says yes because someone dropped out. She has effectively pushed her way in the party. DD goes to party and asks for party bag at the end, which she then wants to exchange for a different bag because the one given was "for boys". She's told off by us.
DD would ask super nicely in front of other people if she could please go to their house for a playdate. I keep saying she can't invite herself to other people's houses. People invite her over after that. She then pushes for having tea at their house, which sometimes she gets. This requests are made with sweet little girl's face, she would look at friend and say "oh, maybe I can stay for tea at yours!", so they would both turn to the other mum and beg her.
DD goes and asks people directly, instead of coming through us. So all of a sudden I head people either agreeing or putting excuses for playdates, school holidays trips, weekend plans, whatever. Usually just in the shape of meeting at the park or someone's house, but still!
DD wants to see film on TV. Friend doesn't like said film. DD starts with "just let me show you the start, it has this thing (random thing not important in the plot that only appears once) that you really really like. I'll show it to you and if you don't like it, then we put the one you like"... Followed by film already on, random detail does not come until minute 30, friend has forgotten about her choice and now they watch this film. She had her way.

I feel it's rude... But then I think I'd like her to have that skill after her teenage years, so she can navigate adulthood asking for what she likes or wants. I feel I'm repressing her now but that in ten years I'll be doing the work to reverse it. I'm tempted to let her be and just excuse her to the parents...

Is your child a bit of a CF? Do you think it pays off in life later on? Is this really that bad or am I overthinking it and people don't pay attention to this from a child this age?

What I find with ds is he'll push and push, it can be exhausting and it's of course easier to let it go but being firm now to drill it in to him eg. Go and put a coat on, no I'm not cold, you need to put it on, says ok but goes out without, back in and put it in, goes upstairs and puts a short sleeve on.... It would drive you bananas!

I take a similar line with DS1, mikado - I tell myself that if nothing else I will be a MIL who acknowledges her PFB might be wrong occasionally!

Oh my! I didn't expect so many replies! Give me a minute to read through

Well, it was really light-hearted, but obviously many have took it as a "AIBU because I find this cute and other people complain", which is not the case!

I say "no" to all requests made in front of me. We've just had one for tea at someone else's house. It was a straight no, followed by other mum trying to accommodate her at another time, followed by me saying "don't let her guilt trip you, it's a no", and silent acceptance. It's not like I stare and wait for other parents to decide. But I do realize she does it often, as I get calls asking me to let her stay for tea when she's having a playdate somewhere.

The party incident turned out on a serious told off and losing privileges for the day. It wasn't rewarded. The problem there was that the party was in a play area, so we were paying for her entry whilst brother had free entry because of the invite. Party mum said not to as she had a child dropping off and she had already paid for all children, so it had no cost to her. Party bag issue was rude and we said that to her, both in front of party mum and afterwards. So we do realize that wasn't ok!

Film, ok, I probably should step in, but I think sometimes kids need to negotiate between themselves and I don't step in unless I see someone is upset or clearly being walked over. I didn't feel it was the case.

But yes, I ask because I am conflicted sometimes and although I say no (and it's a no that it doesn't get reversed), some parents also walk over that no by saying in front of her "oooh, yes, I don't mind, she can stay" or whatever. Which doesn't make it easy as I don't really know where to stand and whether they do actually want her there or whether they are doing it to please her. I assume if they have seen me saying "no", they could take the cue and hold onto that?

Toys are not "good toys", more like party bag plastic stuff, which all the girls around seem to share. Mine seems to give away hair accessories but I think she brings more than she lends (they are all returned a few days later, it's not to keep).

I'll keep an eye, though, and make sure she understands that it's not ok to push herself and to accept the first no. I didn't expect so much hate, though! I certainly don't think she's selfish or a bully, she would give away anything and invites people over without asking me as many times as she would invite herself! But I can see how someone might infer that from one post. I chose examples that had me saying WTF and where I told her off, I haven't included examples where this had been stopped or where the opposite happened! She's a bit of a people's pleased sometimes too (teacher's words), but when she knows someone well, she takes a full arm sometimes!

No kid is perfect, I'm ok hearing that I should do this or that as a parent, but there are some unkind words here towards her, when she's only learning and starting to interact with parents now.

But none of that was explained in your op, I think if it had been, many would have been kinder.

I think the issue op is that you're saying oh I hope she's like this when she's older. If she'd been a boy I suspect you'd have had far worse comments about encouraging coercive behaviour!!
Just be mindful that it is fair and not a powerplay I think? If she chooses the film encourage her to let her mate pick next time without moaning et

She sounds horrible very manipulative do you care how other girls feel around her?
My DC had a friend like this in reception thankfully she found the courage to end the friendship.
This girl now at age 14 has turned her manipulative skills onto the boys as she has no girl friends

@JellieEllie
How is bullying another hold brilliant?

Vampirate, Your child says, "I wasn't talking to you?!"

That would be a contender for serious consequences if she were mine!

I understand. I would want her to ask for what she wants in a work setting, yes. Or tell her partner what she likes without expecting a mind reader. Manipulation? To an extent, as long as everyone is happy, as someone pointed out above. So more negotiation than manipulation.
All this comes from my own observations, no one has told me anything about her and she is not left out. I can see the friends like her. I listen to their conversations and I can see there are two or three "leaders" who decide what the group does, she is one of them but not the only one. I intervene when she's pushy or when she gets upset, but I leave them to it otherwise. My conflict came from realising that on the one hand I tell her off for asking, yet on the other hand I would like her to ask when she's an adult, instead of waiting for things to happen to her. I don't know how to find a good balance. I don't want her to turn into a quiet child that waits to be offered things. That might look nice now but I don't think it's healthy for the future. Especially when it comes to relationships and work dynamics. I think sometimes the image of a polite girl equals the image of a submissive girl, and I'm trying to find a balance. Hear me here when I say balance, please. I don't want her to be a pushy entitled me-me-me girl either.

I know someone with a DD like this, always asking for playdates, very controlling and bossy with my DC if she does come round. Trouble is the parents encourage her, as they want to get her out as much as possible and they have clearly never grown out of the same grabby, bossy and domineering behaviour. Sad, as I just end up trying to avoid all of them as much as possible.

Well, I don't know who my daughter gets this from, as we don't do dinner parties, invite ourselves to anything, very rarely go to people's houses and always pay our share! Maybe it's that? That we don't do it and she doesn't know how to do it? Because she doesn't see it? Just wondering. We don't do it because we are mad busy at the moment and we can't reciprocate, we have zero money as well so we avoid going out because of the cost. At some point we hope to regain some social life, but maybe she's inept because she hasn't seen us doing it? The inviting to dinner or going to others' for dinner I mean.

I certainly wasn’t intending to be unkind to your DD. Unfortunately your original op did read to me very much like you are encouraging manipulative and coercive behaviour. There is a difference between negotiating and manipulating. Negotiating is very much about communication and understanding the other persons needs then explaining the benefits of your idea/needs and ideally coming to a mutually beneficial solution. This can be done in a polite, assertive and direct manor. Manipulation on the other hand is deceiving or twisting the truth/situations so you get what you want. There’s no real thought for the other persons needs. It’s more about getting what you want regardless (eg your film example). I think we can start having these discussions (age appropriate) with children from a young age.

I don’t think anyone is expecting you to turn your DD into a submissive child. It’s more about understanding that the examples you gave in your original op really don’t read well. Politeness, good manors and thoughtful consideration of other people’s needs don’t make anyone look submissive (male or female). In fact I think the people that garner the most respect in life and at work have these traits in addition to being assertive and if required direct. That’s why people want to work with and for them.

Behavior like this is an incredible pet peeve of mine. This isn't "cute" or "confident." You've unfortunately let her get by with manipulating situations so she always gets what she wants. As she gets older, she's going to find herself with no one to play with if you don't set some boundaries and rein her behavior in. Please do not mistake this behavior as her being confident and assertive.

I am also not a fan of encouraging girls to be submissive, but I do think that you can teach assertiveness with kindness (rather than going after what you want without thinking about the needs/feelings of others).

In some of the examples you have given it seems like you are equating people not complaining with everyone being happy. They aren't the same thing. The fact that other kids go along with your dc choosing what to do/watch etc doesn't mean they like it, and I think you should be encouraging your dc to be fair rather than always trying to get what she wants.

I do think you will find that these sorts of behaviours are more tolerated when dc are young, but they can find themselves isolated later.

Well she has a lot of potential to become a dick in the future.

Asking for something you earned or deserve is fine at any age,asking and manipulating just because you want more and things done your way is not,it's definitely not cute either.

It's greedy and oblivious, and she's oblivious because you think she's cute and it's an amazing skill. It is not. She also sounds entitled as well, also down to you.

These are all unpleasant traits in people in general, never mind kids.

I know a kid like that, she was invited round once and once only.

You are right, zebra, and I do indeed want to get a balance. My mistake was to think people would read it as extreme examples based on my "light-hearted" comment. But then I posted in AIBU, so it's my fault for not clarifying further. We encourage turns and if she's getting her way too often, we do step in and say "now it's your brother's turn" (as he's the one she steers the most when trying to convince him to watch what she wants). He's only 3 and easy to convince, but we don't want her to walk over him either. She gets really upset sometimes when we say "no" when she wants to go to other people's houses, but we don't cave in. People, however, seem to feel sorry for her and start to say "oh, we don't mind" or "maybe tomorrow / at the weekend", which sets expectations and turn into a proper invite later on. I keep telling people not to feel sorry and that we can arrange something else at a later day, but I find that difficult to navigate, as my daughter is learning that a cry and perseverance gets her an invite, even though we say "no". That, I find difficult to read. Because I understand I'm giving the parent a chance to take up my "no" and say "your mummy says no", but when they insist, I don't know if they have been coerced or if they do it willingly.
The toys thing, I don't like. More than anything because of the mental space it takes to remember who she gave things to and to whom I need to return things. I never did that as a child and I was completely against it at first, but then my DH said it was normal for kids to lend each other "tat" or little toys, so I've been quiet since. I do think she gets more than she should and if that's not normal I'm keen on going back to handing toys back immediately.
She's a young 6, Y1, just turned, not sure if it makes a difference. Up to this year, they both were invited together to parties, as we lived in a different area and we had common nursery parents also with siblings of the same age. It's this year that they suddenly are being invited separately and she probably is adjusting. When it's at a play centre or somewhere else where we can get tickets, we've been paying entry for the other one. If it's in a booked venue, then we would take one and do something else with the other one. Thing is, the 3yo has only had 3-4 invites so far, two were on his own at play centres, two were together with her. The two he was invited on his own, she ended up being invited too because someone dropped out. So I don't think she understands it wasn't her place, but that she was taking a place that had been paid but left empty. We tried to compensate with a bigger present for the party child, but seeing the responses, I'll probably have a rethink if it happens again.
I should have expected some stone-throwing and made my OP clearer and not assume people would see it as specific CF moments among many other kinder ones. Post and learn, I guess!

It is rude, I'd be so embarrassed! My 6 yo knows you don't invite yourself anywhere! And would not ask for money either I think you need to go over manners with her

I think if you don't let her know her behaviour is not the accepted norm then you will find her friends and their parents and even her sibling's friends and parents will soon be avoiding her and you (and by association her little brother) and invitations will dry up. There will be no parties and playdates because she will have gotten herself a reputation as being grabby and rude and indeed a CF.

Set boundaries now before this happens. There are other things that you can do to encourage her assertiveness and independence without it impacting on others and appearing rude.

It sounds like she is dealing with change and this can be difficult for adults never mind as a 6 year old. The sibling situation is an understandable one.

With regards the play dates/party invites. It must be very difficult for you when you know that she has learned crying and perseverance (done in the right context/situation is a really positive trait that I think should be encouraged) get her the invite because other parents cave/feel sorry for her. Have you considered having a quite polite word with the other parents (when these situations occur) and explain to them that you working on boundaries with her at the moment and would they mind not offering invites when she asks if you say no? I think most parents would understand this. We all go through something similar at some point.

Op it’s AIBU. It’s always a good idea to come prepared when posting a question. A tin hat helps but ideally you need one of these.

Lol zebra, I'll get one of those asap!

Talking to the parents might work. I've mentioned it there and then, and some have agreed with my negative and backtracked, but some have insisted and extended the invitation, even if for the following day.

She definitely does not go around asking for everything to everyone. Quite often I have to encourage her to speak up, but it tends to be when she does not know the people well. Simple things like "X said I could have the spare Lego cards but I forgot to ask, can you ask for me?", where I'd say that if she was offered something and she wanted it, she needs to go herself and ask for it. And it would take a lot of convincing to get her to go and ask. The issue comes when she is comfortable and knows the child / child's parents well, then she can be a bit forthcoming. It usually involves invites to our house or asking if she can go to theirs. Or asking for food (when at their house, not out and about). Not sure why money got mentioned up there, we have been very clear about that and about not asking other people to buy things when she is with them. As far as we know, this has never happened.

I personally think it's a learning curve for her, but I'm not sure why so many posters think that we don't discourage it, or that we actively encourage it, or that she gets her way all the time. She doesn't. We have talked to her about politeness and about turns. But as she is still asking, I want to find a good balance where I don't completely shut down the courage to ask for what she wants, but I can ensure she does it politely and not in a pushy way. Because I do think that asking for what you want, deserve or are offered is a good skill to have. In the same way I'm teaching her to say no when she doesn't want to do something or having done something to her. It's about the balance and how that comes across. In any case, if anything could be learnt from this thread is that she can very easily be categorised as bossy and pushy from the outset and by those who doesn't know her, so I'll have to thread carefully.

Op I wouldn't worry too much about the swapping of toys after play dates. My ds does this with some of his friends. The 'upgrading' is a bit annoying but it sounds like you're on it.

I get what you mean about not knowing whether parents are giving invitations out of genuine willingness, or a sort of embarrassment. But given they're adults, as long as you yourself are telling your daughter no - and meaning it - then I think really you have to take them at face value. If they can't stand up for themselves against a (slightly pushy!) 6 year old then that's something they've got to work on, frankly.