Avocados aren’t vegan?

[Tunnockssnowballs]

AIBU to think this is a bit OTT or should Vegans think twice about eating avocados and almonds because bees are harmed and killed in the farming process.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6269825/amp/Avocados-almonds-broccoli-NOT-vegan-dieters-favorite-ingredients-break-rules.html

@Tistheseason17 please would you share which cosmetic and or toiletry companies are palm oil free? I'm another person who would like to avoid it as far as possible.

If you eat a locally farmed hogget. Organically fed. Etc etc
It’s far far better than eating avocados. It really is. Or eating things with palm oil is. It’s better than eating green beans in the summer grown in Spain or guatamaala

Ergo eat ethically.
Eat locally, eat well and eat less meat.

We don't always have it upfront in our awareness, but we do live in an interconnected web of life. The natural world is a sophisticated synergy and the eco-system is precisely that - a system with each playing a part. For those who aspire to vegan purity, there are some who practice 'veganic' gardening.
Important to keep the big picture in mind, though, we are striving for the health of the whole. Permaculture crop plantings will usually naturally attract wild pollinators.

Because every time you choose something plant based rather than an animal product, even it's only once a day, it is better for the planet.

I agree with this. Just because we can't be 100% vegan, doesn't mean that we should give up. I say this as an omnivore.

Maybe they should just eat dust to be on the safe side 🙄

I think that all we can do is to consume products that are seasonal and locally sourced. If you're going to eat eggs or meat then make sure they are the best quality you can afford.

I think this is the best piece of advice. I am moving to a small island where there is a ban on importing almost all fruit and vegetables, and most meat is raised locally. Importing is cost prohibitive (everything has to come in by boat) and risks a very fragile ecosystem that has managed to remain free from imported pests and disease. I don't know anyone there that is a vegetarian or vegan, but everyone really seems to care about animal welfare and the environment, as they rely on it so heavily to be able to produce their own food.

Is monoculture to produce palm oil worse than monoculture to commercially produce cotton, wheat or potatoes?

I feel like rowing to a desert island and burning the boat.

@Wanderlusting99 best post on this subject I've read for a long time.

I’ve spent a happy morning looking into becoming a beekeeper. My garden is too small and close to my neighbours I think to create a scenario where the bees can fly up and away. But it looks like an absorbing hobby. I’ve even thought of a name for my honey 🍯

Avocados are not an animal product ffs.

Lots of vegans might also avoid foods that have an impact on animals , but veganism itself is about not consuming products of or from an animal.

Bees and wildlife being harmed in farming practices is unfortunate effect of mas scale agriculture which many meat eaters are also concerned about, but vegan is a specific diet. Avocados are not a bee product

I’ve spent a happy morning looking into becoming a beekeeper. My garden is too small and close to my neighbours I think to create a scenario where the bees can fly up and away. But it looks like an absorbing hobby. I’ve even thought of a name for my honey

I've been inspired by this thread and have started to discuss with some local beekeepers about getting a few hives at my property when I move there in January. I hadn't even thought about naming my honey! So many possibilities!

Branleuse this is the definition of veganism from the vegan society. Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

So it is as much about avoiding products that exploit animals as it is about avoiding animal products. For example a vegan would avoid a beauty product tested on animals even though that product would not contain animals derivatives.

TSSNDNCOP you might be able to find a local farmer who would be happy for you to put hives on their land. If you join your local beekeeping association (something I'd recommend anyway) they might be able to advise. It is a very satisfying hobby and I love watching the bees fly in and out.

It's hard to inspect a hive without accidentally killing a bee or so, particularly when putting the boxes back together though we do try our best not to. But then bees in the wild are in a really bad state due to the varroa mite which means they succumb to some nasty diseases, so on balance I feel kept bees are better off. On stores, we took 11kg of honey from one of our hives in August which should last us the year, but they're piling in the ivy nectar and pollen right now so they are well on course to have enough honey stored to make it through winter without needing sugar. We'll give them some candy just in case they run short.

Thanks for all the really interesting and varied thoughts on this. I think I’m thinking I’ll stay away from the word Vegan as it’s impossible and really a can of worms. I’m going to look at individual products and make decisions as I go along. At the end of the day there is no way to live completely ethically. A person who raises and slaughters their own pigs could live more ethically than a vegan who eats lots of products that contain palm oil and uses lots of plastics. I also think the word Vegan makes other people feel bad so I’m just going to try my best to eat and consume best products I can. Thanks everyone.

I was talking to a farmer friend yesterday. He can’t slayghter his own animals (o didn’t actually ask why, but perhaps it’s becayse he sells the meat) and has to drive over 150 miles because although there are more local houses he believes their practices stress the animals too much.

Thank you Una that’s worthy of thought. I’ve got a friend with land that might be interested in a joint venture.

I really think the basic definition of veganism is much simpler than that and is not eating dead animals or animal products.

Anything further is a choice that follows the individual's particular line of thought but is not integral to 'being a vegan' - which is a descriptor of a dietary behaviour.

It is not a religion or cult with top-down rules. 'Being a vegan' is therefore nothing like 'being a Catholic / Hindu' etc. I think that confuses a lot of people. Hence the 'oh I didn't know you were allowed that' and 'I thought vegans all did this for X reason' comments. Allowed by whom? Signed up to what shared doctrine?' It's a personal choice.

...Actually realised I don't know enough about Hinduism to say if it is 'top down' or not. Was trying too hard to give diverse comparators. Catholicism was the one that came to mind, with the top down-ness and the doctrine.

Point is veganism is not a shared belief system (though people who do it may share some common values). It is a dietary descriptor.

lottiegarbanzo Thats really interesting, I hadn’t thought of it like that. Do you think it is becoming more like an organised religion though? It’s certainly a protected characteristic now (I Think)

I think it very much not like an organised religion - it's not organised and it's not a religion. There is no 'higher power' or 'belief'. It's all about choice, usually based on a rational assessment of available information, taken from a particular ethical position. That position varies between vegans e.g. some totally focused on animal welfare, others on the act of killing, others on environmental considerations. So it's not even a 'common set of values', though there may be a lot of overlap.

It's a response people make to the dietary choices they are faced with. (This I think is interesting, that it a restrictive response to having a lot of choice. It doesn't happen where people have very limited dietary options. Perhaps it is one way of simplifying life, when faced with overwhelming choice? But that's getting into psychology, not ethics).

I just think people get confused, linguistically, by the 'I am a ...' phrase. In their heads this connects with 'I am a Catholic', or insert other top-down belief system that one 'signs up to' by signing over an amount of personal autonomy, in favour of internalising decisions made for one by the church. 'I am a vegan' just means I don't eat certain things. It doesn't tell you why.

I dont eat avocados myself but do eat most vegetables. I dont eat honey or anything from any animal that has been alive.I hate it when people use the 'what about the worms though' 'what about the carrots feelings' argument.. people who eat meat also eat carrots, so, cannot use that argument. We have to eat something, I would rather eat a carrot than a pig.

Let me throw in a little test case. If someone is vegetarian because they just don't like the texture of meat and they find that fish smells off-putting and, they are also allergic to dairy and eggs, so happen to eat a vegan diet, are they a vegan?

Are they 'in effect vegan' or are they 'a vegan' and is there any difference between the two?

My view is that veganism implies ethical choice and is usually based on this, but does not necessarily require it. So that person is vegan but might not choose to describe themselves as 'a vegan'.

@Arborea
After a lot of searching Lily Lolo on Amazon.

lottieg, the definition of vegan in Britain is very strict. The definition of vegan used in other countries is looser & very often relates only to dietary choices, not entire lifestyle philosophical outlook. That's part of the confusion you get on these threads, b/c British vegans are so adamant that the motives have to go with behaviour or else the picture fails to be Vegan. I know people who call themselves vegan & say they do it for health or political reasons (but they wouldn't be vegan in Britain). Decades ago I worked in a very busy vegetarian food shop in another country. We thought vegan was a food choice thing, not about shoes you wore or trade ingredients in your makeup or how avocados were pollinated.

I don't know how long British people have adhered to the radically strict ideology vision of what is veganism. The vegan society only embraced the "exploitation" part of their identity in 1949. I bet it was controversial & alienated some members. The word pescatarian was only invented about 1991; before that we pescies called ourselves vegetarian & nobody argued about it. These strict definitions do seem very important to some people.