Avocados aren’t vegan?

[Tunnockssnowballs]

AIBU to think this is a bit OTT or should Vegans think twice about eating avocados and almonds because bees are harmed and killed in the farming process.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6269825/amp/Avocados-almonds-broccoli-NOT-vegan-dieters-favorite-ingredients-break-rules.html

Well yes, vegan has a meaning, of course. Certainly no meat, fish, eggs or dairy. But the 'as far as possible and practiable' bit there is very relevant in the sort of cases you're describing. People will make different choices about that.

My point is that it's not 'what is allowed' by some higher authority, it is what the individual has chosen. Beyond the basics, people make slightly differeing choices, often for very different reasons. i wa spicking up on the 'I thought they didn't do X for this reason' comment above. 'They' are different individuals with differing reasons.

lottiegarbanzo Yes of course every individual is different. Veganism is really a can of worms when you look into it. I’m just not sure why it’s bad to eat honey but okay to eat almonds now? I just can’t see how one choice is morally superior to the other?

Surely growing fruit and vegetables involves insect pollination which is taking advantage of insects so vegan should shouldn’t eat anything?

vegans fight amongst themselves about what it measn o be vegan.
according to some, if you only follow a vegan diet, you're not 'allowed' to call yourself "A Vegan", merely "someone that follows a vegan diet"

it's all a bit odd. because, as you say, where do you draw the line?
I'm sure there are self-proclaimed vegans that wear cheap clothes made in a sweat-shop, and tweet about their veganism from a phone that was mass produced in some factory where workers are over worked, whilst munching on an apple from a supermarket that bullied the supplier by forcing unfair prices on them.

It's all a bit bizarre really.

Lalliella That’s true and I believe that tomatoes are grown using fish bones?

00100001 That’s a really interesting point too. The exploitation of animals surely covers humans too as humans are animals?

I think it’s fairly clear cut. Bees make honey for their own use. The almonds involve lesser exploitation and aren’t made for the bees’ own use. Don’t see why that’s not a clear distinction.
It is, as you quoted, a bit fluid in the ‘as far as practicable’ definition, but there’s nothing wrong with that. As for you th8nming about veganism - do you think you are still exploiting animals too much? Exploit them a bit less then.
I’m a meat eater, by the way.

Because an almond isn't an animal product and honey is.

If you want to eat honey and eggs, but not drink milk or eat cheese etc because you feel dairy harms animals and eggs and honey don't, then do that.

You'd get some vegans being morally superior but I for one wouldn't be. People need to make decisions based on their own conscience and any step toward veganism is better than nothing. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Let me explain why vegans don't eat honey.

Because it is an animal product, made by bees, as food for bees. Nothing to do with bees being killed when it's harvested - they aren't.

Just as vegans don't eat milk, because it is made by cows, as food for calves.

And they don't eat eggs, because they are produced by chickens.

Although all of the above are acceptable to vegetarians.

I don’t think it is just about staying clear of eating/using products. It’s about staying clear of products that also exploit animals such as cosmetics tested in animals for example.

My tomatoes are not grown using fish bones. All plants have to pollinate to grow (some do it themselves). How are you ever to know if the bee that pollinated the runner bean you are eating came from a domesticated hive or not?

Depends on the vegan, as lottiegarbanzo said. While there is a general definition, the Vegan society doesn't speak for every vegan and things like this tend to fall under more personal definitions over the general one. I know some vegans who don't eat honey because it fits under animal products, others don't because they think it is gross or don't like it, and I know others who will use honey or buy other products from local beekeepers as they save a lot of bees and a big part of trying to help keep their numbers from dwindling which is a big environmental and ethical issue at the moment.

I've read about some people who are cutting back or not eating avocados due to ethical issues with sourcing both in terms of environmental transport costs and the issues the growers are facing - similar to soon after quinoa hit its popularity height and reports came out of issues growers and their communities were facing. My understanding is that Kenya banned exports of avocados earlier this year for a bit because of similar issues. Personally, I just don't eat them because I don't like them.

It’s such a minefield is anything ethical?

Vegans don't consume animal products. Products being the key word. Every single food crop necessitates harm to animals whetget it is through clearing land and destroying ecosystems or during the planting, growing and harvesting process where some animals will either be accidentally or intentionally killed. There is literally nothing that one can eat that doesn't harm animals unless one grows one's own food and meticulously check soil and crops for insects before doing anything. Look up Jainism. They don't eat root veg and don't cook outdoors with an open fire in order to avoid killing insects.

The farming of avocadoes and almonds have actually both done massive environmental damage which will have had an impact on both animals/birds and people. So whilst vegans do eat them, they aren't massively ethical things to eat.

Eating locally produced food is far the best thing for the planet.

Being vegan isn't about airmiles, or reducing plastic, or eating ethically sourced veg, nuts, seeds etc. It's about not doing harm to animals as far as is possible. Anything produced by an animal is for a reason (or because of years of genetically modifying them, as in daily egg laying chickens) and so if humans take it for themselves (in the huge quantities we do) then harm comes to those animals as a result.

Each bee will make a teaspoon of honey in it's lifetime! Interesting fact there!

I'm not a veggie or vegan but I am taking a stand on palm oil.

I looked at vegan shampoo, cosmetics etc and I think a lot of vegans would be surprised to know that most vegan stuff still contains palm oil derivatives given fancy names to hide it. I could only find one conditioner and a shampoo bar without palm oil derivatives and only one cosmetic company.

So basically, loads of vegans are supporting the deforestation and daily killing of orangutans without realising it - and there is no such thing as sustainable palm oil, so don;t buy the propaganda.

I don’t eat animal products but am wary of calling myself a vegan because literally no level of vegan-ness is ever vegan enough to satisfy either other vegans or meat eaters.

I don't want to live on sugarbeet. It's about the only non-animal food produced around here in winter.

I tried being vegan 20 years ago but gave up for several reasons, one of which was precisely this problem - it got to a point where I felt guilty about eating ANYTHING because nothing seemed to be ethical and, frankly, it started to make me a bit crazy. I decided to stop being vegan when I found myself questioning whether I should buy batteries for my walkman because they use gelatine in the production process...

I read an article that said that almost nothing is truly vegan, which rather begs the question "Why bother?"

If it’s “avocado” meaning a Spanish lawyer, then I think the question answers itself.

Well, this is all news to me ..not overly keen on avocados...but do enjoy broccoli.

Not a vegan, but this "not all or nothing" response from PETA seems sensible [https://www.peta.org/living/food/making-transition-vegetarian/ideas-vegetarian-living/tiny-amount-animal-products-food/]

Every time we step we kill creatures, micro organisms.

Every time we flush the toilet we raise the water level a fraction which may harm wildlife.

Computers, phones, modems laptops are made using animal carcass derived adhesives- stearates. Same with car tyres, bike tyres, microchips, TVs. Even if you use public transport you are supporting the use of animal by products in lubricants , fabrics and floorings.

I don't think anyone can truly call themselves vegan unless they are off grid.