My feed

to access all these features


AIBU to think that this is gaslighting of victims?

60 replies

Shiklah · 13/10/2018 14:38

I am really shocked that the media are referring to Karen White, the male rapist as she. Jeremy Vine has said that if he refers to Karen White as male complaints against him will be upheld. This person lived near me and waged a campaign of terror on local residents in social housing and pretended to be transgendered so that he could access and rape a vulnerable women. He then used this persona to be moved to a women's prison and commitment further offences. He has now been sentenced to 22 years (in a male prison).

The media is referring to this man as 'she' and making reference to 'her penis'. How is this not gaslighting and abusive towards his victims? They know a man attacked them so why is his preference for pronouns more important that the victims right to recovery? We know the damage that denying victims truthful testimony causes so why is this happening? We know that being told that their rapists were 'good men' gave victims of abuse in the Catholic Church and Jimmy Savile, so how is this different?

This is not a thread derogatory to trans people, I feel utterly confused as to how a violent male offender has been able to pretend to be a trans gendered woman to commit these crimes, and yet is still being referred to in the media by female pro nouns despite the trans community and the judge in the case stating he was manipulating people using a 'trans persona' and Drs stating that he did not have dysphoria and was not committed to transitioning.

Please don't attack me and call me transphobic, I am terrified to discuss this in real life as I am frightened of being called a bigot. I am actually very worried that this man pretending to be a trans women will cause transphobia. I have no axe to grind but find this so confusing and upsetting. I work with vulnerable young women and am a victim of sexual violence myself, please be kind.

Thank you.

OP posts:
DonDrapersOldFashioned · 13/10/2018 14:43

Yes it is gas lighting. At the bare minimum. It is unbe-fucking-lievable that we have come to this and are still being called bigots and transphobic. It is the Emperors New Genitals and we are all expected to nod, smile and agree, like good little girls. There, there. Hush now.

Shiklah · 13/10/2018 14:52

Here is the local newspaper report on the case, it has been in all the national papers as well.
Can anyone explain why his victims are being treated with such contempt? It has made me feel very concerned that this predator is more important some how, more deserving of respect that the women he raped and assaulted and the pensioner he stabbed and nearly killed.

OP posts:
AnoukSpirit · 13/10/2018 14:55

Victims are always treated with contempt.

TwistedStitch · 13/10/2018 14:57

It's repulsive. I read elsewhere that one of his victims was pregnant when he raped her, another has been left with internal injuries that may impact on her fertility. It is a further abuse for these women to be told that the MAN who violated and harmed them with his PENIS is in anyway a woman.

Asteria36 · 13/10/2018 15:07

The tangible fear of offending this creature, or the community he pretended to be part of in order to lure his victims in close enough to abuse them, is sickening. I cannot believe that there is a single transgender person out there who would happily support the right of a predator to identify as trans if it is so blatantly a means of entrapment.

Shiklah · 13/10/2018 15:08

She was pregnant when he drugged and raped her. He was also a man called Stephen. I cannot imagine the confusion, distress and mental anguish seeing him referred as a woman will cause his victims.

OP posts:
Shiklah · 13/10/2018 15:09

Thank you so much for all your replies. I'm frightened to discuss this in RL and appreciate it very much. It's so bizarre and confusing :(

OP posts:
citiesofbismuth · 13/10/2018 15:21

'In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act'

George Orwell

Shiklah · 13/10/2018 15:34

It certainly feels Orwellian.

Can anyone shed any light on this? Why is it happening?

If this man is a woman can anyone be a woman, even a rapist with a penis? I did not know a pre operative trans gendered woman could be put in a woman's prison, I doubt many people do, but I don't know because I am scared to talk to my colleagues etc.

This must be the worst possible outcome for transgendered people with dysphoria. Why is this allowed?

Sorry for so many ??? my head hurts.

OP posts:
citiesofbismuth · 13/10/2018 17:26

It's happening because men are prioritised over women and people are anxious to avoid being condemned as a transphobic. Most people are sheep and will follow the crowd. Like the emperor's new clothes, it only takes one person to speak the truth and then others will follow.

Don't be afraid to speak the truth. Refuse to submit to tyranny.

Neshoma · 13/10/2018 17:55

Fully agree.

Did see women are referring to themselves as 'Womxn' so KW can call themselves woman as the gender is in there.

Mumminmum · 13/10/2018 18:00

It is gaslighting and it is abuse if the rapist really saw themselves as a woman they wouldn't have raped women. So this person does not in fact identify as woman. It is a lie meant to give the rapist access to vulnerable women.

Shiklah · 13/10/2018 18:32

Thank you for your responses.

I have just been to the pub for an hour with a few school mum friends and I was brave and brought this up. There were 5 of us and 3 of the other women thought that to be called a trans gendered woman and be allowed into a women's prison, hospital ward or changing room you would have to have had full reassignment surgery.

Not one of them could understand why Karen White was put in prison with woman and why the media are calling him a woman.

Why are the government, the police, schools etc doing this? Its so dangerous and mad. A male rapist can never be a woman, a man with gender dysphoria would not use his penis to rape? Its insane.

Sorry if I seem like I am ranting. I feel like either I have gone mad or the world has.

I expected this thread to quickly explain to me that I was wrong, and hoped it would be done politely and kindly. I thought I was missing something.

Does anyone think Karen White should be in a women's prison? If not why was he there? Apparently there are other men, rapists like this one, in women's prisons. Can they be released and come into a women's changing room or hospital ward?

This is terrifying.

OP posts:
Screaminginsidemeagain · 13/10/2018 22:16

I’m so confused about all of this.

People think you are crazy when I talk to them about it, like I’m making it up.

The whole gender stereotyping makes me so mad. I can’t help but think that parents have a lot to answer for. If I read the book about transgender that was so gender bias to my girls they would probably have many questions as to what the hell that ment for our family.
None of our women are ‘feminine’, nanny and Aunty never wear make up, heals or dresses. I rarely put a dress and makeup on.
The women do the diy and gardening etc, daddy does the washing and ironing. We are outdoorsy, I can fire a bow, light a fire and pitch a tent in minutes. My girls have been brought up the same. I can also rock a dress and create a beautifully decorated cake.

Have there been studies on the up bringing of trans people and whether gender stereotyping was deeply ingrained in their childhood? It must be for them to feel ‘other’ than their sex.

I can’t imagine my daughters wanting to be male because I haven’t brought them up to believe that there is any difference except biological.

Am I missing something?

maddening · 13/10/2018 23:09

Terence aka Karen is a man and he belongs in a male prison with the other men.

RedFallLeaf · 14/10/2018 09:24

I, like many, am not fully on board with elements of the transgender movement.

However, surely the trans community actually need to publicly distance themselves from this man - he does none of them any favours. Severely damaging to the trans community.

Shikah · 14/10/2018 09:41

I think it is just utterly confusing, ill thought thru, non sensical and illogical.

I have spoken to quite a few people about this now. They either

  1. don't know that men with no physical or hormonal changes can be allowed to access women's prisons, hospitals etc OR
  2. don't want to discuss it because they are afraid of being called a bigot and accused of causing children's self harm and suicide.

    This is crazy, just utterly crazy.

    I think the low amount of responses to this thread confirms this. Maybe I am wrong, I would be keen to here from someone who can explain to mr why the media etc are referring to a male rapist as she and why this rapists victims matter less than his right to have his pro nouns respected.

    I feel very angry on the victims behalf. They know a man attacked them, they know they were raped by a man, but the newspapers refer to 'her penis' - how is this acceptable? We use screens in court to allow victims the right to testimony? We know how important it is.

    For those who support trans rights - why aren't trans people campaigning to have this rapist thrown in a male prison and supporting a process of transition that protects trans people screening out predators?

    I don't understand why ANYONE would support self ID with the evidence of harm it will do from this monstrous man?
MustBeDreaming · 14/10/2018 10:36

I recommend reading about and submitting to the government consultation about reforms to the Gender Recognition Act if you have concerns about Self-ID. and the womens_rights forum have a lot of discussion about it.

Shikah · 14/10/2018 10:39

Thank you for your response, I found the consultation last night when I was reading up on this and I have book marked it to fill in later.

Chocolate1984 · 14/10/2018 10:52

I listened to a phone in about this case and nearly everyone was sympathetic towards Karen. No one mentioned the poor women they raped or questioned why this person was put in a female prison in the first place. One caller said Karen might not even have raped these women as we don’t know what persona this person was using at the time of the rape. Karen could be innocent as rape is a male crime and Karen isn’t Male. Poor Karen now has to go to a male prison and what about her? What about her safety? Karen must come first as she has faced so many struggles.

ChairmanMiaow123 · 14/10/2018 11:04

I had a discussion about this with a woman that I work with and I basically called him a complete c*nt for being every single bit of his behaviour.
And she said ‘you shouldn’t really say that (at work), cos people might take it the wrong way and complain to HR about you.’

I said ‘And?
He’s been given carte blanche to abuse women and no one’s allowed to criticise him and apparently my behaviour/language would upset people more than treating him with contempt.’

She didn’t know what to say to that, so maybe I went overboard a bit, i dunno...

I said ‘on that note, i’m go to the toilet.’

ChairmanMiaow123 · 14/10/2018 11:06

Sweet Jesus, Chocolate! 😳

Did they really??
I despair sometimes about the world we live in sometimes. 😩

Idontbelieveinthemoon · 14/10/2018 11:16

Karen could be innocent as rape is a male crime and Karen isn’t Male. Poor Karen now has to go to a male prison and what about her? What about her safety? Karen must come first as she has faced so many struggles.

I heard this phone-in and was beyond furious afterwards because it was the most gaslight riddled bullshit I've ever heard.

When the emotional welfare of a male rapist trumps those of his victims that he raped with his penis the world is entirely fucked. He's a man. He's in a male jail because he is a man. He is a danger to women, to society and to the Trans community because aligning themselves with his cause means there's even less trust and acceptance for those Trans people who wouldn't countenance such acts.

Shikah · 14/10/2018 12:10

What radio station was that? It sounds sociopathic.

I haven't seen anything like that point of view. Also I find that incredibly confusing. Trans people have body dysphoria, not different personas. A transvestite like Grayson Perry has his female persona claire, but trans gendered people believe they are 'born in the wrong body' so if he's a trans woman he has been all his life, not changing between different personas.

MissTrinket · 14/10/2018 15:07

Might it be a good thing to refer to the rapist as Karen and use female pronouns?
Surely this case encapsulates and illustrates just why we're against self ID.
It's, after all, 'self' ID, not 'what anybody else thinks about me' ID.
The entire globe can think that this is a man, and our opinions will be irrelevant.
Self ID will be for anyone who want to use it, and some who do will be nasty.
If Karen says she's a woman, then she's a woman.
Oppose self ID.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.