AIBU to think that this is gaslighting of victims?

[Shiklah]

I am really shocked that the media are referring to Karen White, the male rapist as she. Jeremy Vine has said that if he refers to Karen White as male complaints against him will be upheld. This person lived near me and waged a campaign of terror on local residents in social housing and pretended to be transgendered so that he could access and rape a vulnerable women. He then used this persona to be moved to a women's prison and commitment further offences. He has now been sentenced to 22 years (in a male prison).

The media is referring to this man as 'she' and making reference to 'her penis'. How is this not gaslighting and abusive towards his victims? They know a man attacked them so why is his preference for pronouns more important that the victims right to recovery? We know the damage that denying victims truthful testimony causes so why is this happening? We know that being told that their rapists were 'good men' gave victims of abuse in the Catholic Church and Jimmy Savile, so how is this different?

This is not a thread derogatory to trans people, I feel utterly confused as to how a violent male offender has been able to pretend to be a trans gendered woman to commit these crimes, and yet is still being referred to in the media by female pro nouns despite the trans community and the judge in the case stating he was manipulating people using a 'trans persona' and Drs stating that he did not have dysphoria and was not committed to transitioning.

Please don't attack me and call me transphobic, I am terrified to discuss this in real life as I am frightened of being called a bigot. I am actually very worried that this man pretending to be a trans women will cause transphobia. I have no axe to grind but find this so confusing and upsetting. I work with vulnerable young women and am a victim of sexual violence myself, please be kind.

Thank you.

[R0wantrees]

There have been many vulnerable women locked in prison with males convicted of violent crimes includinh rape and child abuse.

Vulnerable women are being forced to take communal showers etc with male-bodied prisoners.

Paedophiles are being placed inside prison with vulnerable single-mothers.

Women in prison have experienced a high level of male-based violence: rape, domestic violence, coersive control.

Prisons should be single sex. There is no good reason why this should not be the case.

It is a massive failure of duty of care to vulnerable female prisoners.

[Oldstyle]

I'm not surprised that this particular case produces a clear anti self-ID response since it's such an extreme example of women's actual safety being ignored on the say-so of a particularly reprehensible man.
I'm less sure how people feel about self-ID in other circumstances given that women are a tolerant lot and inclined to be inclusive. For example,
Rachel McKinnon (who is trans) has just smashed the women's world cycling record; the Labour Party have just elected their 3rd trans Woman's Officer (an activist for the cause); the Spanish contestant for Miss Universe 2018 is trans.
I would always have been against mixed sex sports but would have accepted the latter in the past. Not any more. I feel that women's place in society is being consistently undermined by the trans lobby. Even had Karen White not happened, self-ID is simply not acceptable. Or AIBU? (Hope not!)

PS Good for you Clitterati!

[TheClitterati]

I had a very interesting weekend on my fb after posting about my similar confusion about this op.

Turned out I have my very own woke Bro, LP activist turned TRA Thug to give me a proper dressing down and abuse for daring to discuss this.

On the other side of it all I feel strangely liberated, and fearless.

[R0wantrees]

Do email your MP if you haven't already.
There's a meeting this week in Westminster that all MPs have been invited to with WPUK, FP4W & TRansgenderTrend. It would be good to encourage them to attend or to send a representative if not able.

FP4W have details on their FB page.

[Shiklah]

I have done nothing but read about this and sleep for 48 hrs!

[Shiklah]

I have read that thread :)

MN is an educational place full of opportunities for women to understand each other and broaden their knowledge - thank you.

[R0wantrees]

there is a thread here that many have found useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

[Shiklah]

Thank you @R0wantrees

I have been on that website today. I thank the wonder women who have spent time spelling it out for me so I can see it and understand, I am in shock, I think. The information is quiet incomprehensible and I can see that it could be seen as 'tin hat brigade' conspiracy theory nonsense by many regular people. I am not in any way criticising it, but have brain ache from this madness and trying to contain my cognitive dissidence. I have started a new thread to see if the many intelligent, busy mums on MN have any idea about what is happening in this country. I can't believe people will accept this, I refuse to believe it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3394767-AIBU-to-state-that-no-one-thinks-Self-ID-for-Trans-gender-people-should-be-passed-as-law

[R0wantrees]

Fairplay for Women have a lotof infornation as well as a link to and guidance to the government consultation on self-id which ends 19th October.

fairplayforwomen.com/

[Shiklah]

Does anyone in the mn community think self ID is acceptable?
It really seems not.
Why would anyone ever think this is ok?

[Shiklah]

So how do we ensure they find out?

Billboards of this photograph karen white with text
'Under self ID this is a woman'

But that would be 'transphobic' I suppose. How could that be transphobic. This is seriously fucked up.

I feel like I need to take action.

[WombOfOnesOwn]

The only way they've kept this consultation from being absolutely flooded by outrage against trans self ID, is by keeping information out of the hands of women. Women outside activist circles still don't know that "trans women are women" can include a bearded man with no dysphoria and no intent of ever so much as crossdressing. They think this is about rights for fully transitioned people.

[Shiklah]

thank you for your replies

I put it in AIBU as I knew Feminist pages wouldn't get a range of replies. But on this thread not one person has said that self ID is acceptable.

I am very keen to hear from ANYONE who thinks self ID is acceptable and their reasons. Feeling sympathy for one marginalised group does not condone the oppression of another much larger group - everyone can see that can't they?

Also where are the trans men in this debate? I note no 'trans men are men' lights up national monuments. Why? I feel strongly it is because they are female and only bloody males matter?! Can someone shed light on this.

I am very grateful for the kindness and respect shown on this thread, which is unlike what I have seen in my research on twitter. It is frightening to me that so few woman dare speak out.

[nottakingthisanymore]

Karen White does not think she is a woman any more than I think I’m a strawberry and that is the whole point.

If she says she’s trans then she is. Therefore she is a woman and goes to a woman’s prison. You can’t say she’s not a man. How do we know she’s not a woman if she says she is.

She sums up the problems with self ID 100%!

[R0wantrees]

There is a petition:
'Review rules that allow male prisoners who identify as female in women's prisons
Fair Play For Women is calling for MPs to ensure the relevant prison rules are urgently reviewed, in full consultation with women's organisations. Prison guidance PSI-17/2016 allows male prisoners who identity as female to be moved to a female prison at the discretion of a Transgender Case Board.

No women's organisations were consulted when the prison rules were updated in 2016. The effect on female prisoners has not been adequately assessed. Current rules are not fit for purpose and must be urgently reviewed.'
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

[paffuto]

I'm glad you've put this in AIBU Shiklah, will open a few more eyes hopefully.

[JustDanceAddict]

if you have a penis you are biologically a man imho and should not be put in a woman’s prison. By all means go to a segregated part of a man’s prison with other trans criminals.
I think self-Id is very harmful if you’re a pre-op trans woman. If you’ve had the bottom half surgery then by all means come into women’s spaces, but not before.
And I’m not talking cubicles in swimming pool changing rooms as they are often unisex anyway - but where vulnerable people reside (prisons, refuges etc).

[paffuto]

Am I right in saying that the GRA changes have already been approved for Scotland, or have I got the wrong info?

[Shiklah]

Yes Craig Whittaker is a stain on the House of Commons. A disgrace. Every time I see him lurking sycophantically behind May my blood pressure goes thru the roof. These self promoting narcissist are deciding what is best for women. The arrogance of it is spectacular. We know he doesn't care about women, but I will email Penny about this. Thank you for your advice.

I am a woman and I accept Rose West is a woman, no one is saying women cannot be dangerous predators. But these are men. Men with a fetish and a personality disorder that allows them to be free from social norms that would contain this behaviour in privacy in the general population. I just don't know if they are ignoring that fact or are so hard of thinking they don't see it. A transsexual person with body dysmorphia and a rapist cannot exist in the same person. One excludes the other. It is obvious. Or am I wrong?

I totally see the points being made about using "If trans women are women then Karen white is a woman" as a straw man argument to destroy the whole ideology and it is a very smart move, but stepping away from that I am thinking of the victims of these men. I will be even more specific, I am thinking about the female and child victims of these men. They will self ID as women and be carers in the group homes my vulnerable clients live in, mental health wards where women try and rebuild themselves, domestic violence shelters etc. This is obvious to anyone who understands predatory male behaviour - I am not alone in seeing this, why are the government and media playing such a dangerous game?

The Police where I live have treated women and girls with contempt for many years and I am shaking with anger. Grooming gangs, endless grooming gangs, Jimmy Saville now this. Shame on them all.

As with all things, those that suffer will be the poor, the vulnerable and those without a voice. Whilst Penny has tea and biscuits with Pink News and pats herself on the back for being such a liberal and enlightened individual a male predator will be eyeing up jobs at Yards Wood and looking forward to spending his days strip searching the most traumatised and victimised women in society.

Disgraceful.

[Shiklah]

I think that is right now. This is why my DC say I shouldn't be chatting on the internet :)

[Shikah]

Oh god I cleared all my cookies when I was checking a flight price this morning and must have messed it all up re my user name - supposed to be Shiklah - I will swap back!

[RepealtheGRA]

@Shikah

OMG how completely horrific. Wow. Perhaps email Penny Mourdant then and cc him and Baroness Winterbourne on [email protected]

Somebody needs to explain what’s going on, because you’re right, this is gaslighting of victims and must be adding to their distress.

[paffuto]

OP, are you both Shiklah and Shikah? Confused.!

[R0wantrees]

James Kirkup Spactator

(extract)

"To recap: the State put a rapist in a jail full of vulnerable women. That rapist then sexually assaulted four of those women. MPs wanted to know how that happened, and to question the ministers responsible for those events. The Speaker of the House of Commons said they could not do so.

The story of transgender policy in Britain today is a story of political failure, where many people fail to do their job and speak openly about matters of clear public interest. Writing about it this year, I’ve grown accustomed to that failure, though no less angry about it.

But even by the dismal standards of the trans debate, where supposedly responsible figures routinely shirk their duties to appease a small, aggressive group of activists and lobbyists, John Bercow’s decision strikes me as repulsive, a disgusting abdication of responsibility that brings shame on its author and his office."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-state-has-failed-karen-whites-victims/

[R0wantrees]

James Kirkup Spectator:

(extract)

"Karen White attacked some of those women in New Hall prison, a women’s prison. Karen White, then awaiting trial for rape, was in New Hall because Karen White says Karen White is transgender. Born male and still possessing a male body (including the penis used to rape that pregnant woman), Karen White was treated as a woman by the prison service, because Karen White said Karen White was a woman.

And Karen White is one of the reasons quite a lot of people have reservations about changing the law to allow people to change their recognised gender on the basis of their own testimony.

There is a common criticism of journalism and political argument on this topic, a criticism that is often voiced by trans-rights advocates and others. It can be summarised as: “By discussing trans rights and cases of abuse in the same context, you are demonising trans people and implying that trans people are sexual predators and perverts. That is harmful because it adds to the stigma some trans people experience. Please stop.”

And if that was indeed the point being made, I think that would be a fair response.

But it’s not. The concern that has been raised about self-ID and other trans-rights policies is about safeguarding, about protecting vulnerable people from manipulative and abusive men. The expressed gender identity of those men doesn’t really come into it, except where those people might use the concept of gender to exploit those rules and facilitate their abuse." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/the-cautionary-tale-of-karen-white-the-transgender-rapist/