AIBU to think that this is gaslighting of victims?

[Shiklah]

I am really shocked that the media are referring to Karen White, the male rapist as she. Jeremy Vine has said that if he refers to Karen White as male complaints against him will be upheld. This person lived near me and waged a campaign of terror on local residents in social housing and pretended to be transgendered so that he could access and rape a vulnerable women. He then used this persona to be moved to a women's prison and commitment further offences. He has now been sentenced to 22 years (in a male prison).

The media is referring to this man as 'she' and making reference to 'her penis'. How is this not gaslighting and abusive towards his victims? They know a man attacked them so why is his preference for pronouns more important that the victims right to recovery? We know the damage that denying victims truthful testimony causes so why is this happening? We know that being told that their rapists were 'good men' gave victims of abuse in the Catholic Church and Jimmy Savile, so how is this different?

This is not a thread derogatory to trans people, I feel utterly confused as to how a violent male offender has been able to pretend to be a trans gendered woman to commit these crimes, and yet is still being referred to in the media by female pro nouns despite the trans community and the judge in the case stating he was manipulating people using a 'trans persona' and Drs stating that he did not have dysphoria and was not committed to transitioning.

Please don't attack me and call me transphobic, I am terrified to discuss this in real life as I am frightened of being called a bigot. I am actually very worried that this man pretending to be a trans women will cause transphobia. I have no axe to grind but find this so confusing and upsetting. I work with vulnerable young women and am a victim of sexual violence myself, please be kind.

Thank you.

OP Karen White may or may not be sincere in seeing himself as trans.
There are plenty of transwomen who retain their penis and claim they think of themselves as lesbians and their penis as a female sexual organ.

But with regard to self ID, I saw a very good comment somewhere, along the lines of: "If you believe Karen White isn't trans, then you also have to believe that there is a problem with self-ID."

The thing is, the ‘transgender rights movement’ (for want of a better description) is very vocal, especially on social media. Calling this rapist a man or referring to them as ‘he’ will be called out as ‘misgendering’. So complaints will literally come in doves and will be upheld. Misgendering is a particularly important topic of contention for transgender activists, so the view is that by misgendering this one rapist, you are being discriminatory against the transgender community as a whole if that makes sense? Like his crimes are horrendous and it’s debatable if he is actually a transgender female, but that is a separate matter from calling a transgender female a man.

That’s what I have inferred from reading posts from the transgender community about this. None of them support the rapist and they are of the opinion that this vile prick has set transgender rights several steps back, but the misgendering aspect hits a sore spot. Also do take into account that trans people are statistically likely to be victims of abuse - so they are not defending the rapist at all.

If the media publically called this rapist a man, the company as a whole would be labelled as discriminatory which they of course want to avoid. I don’t think it’s the media trying to gaslight the victims at all - they have clearly stated that this transgender woman was a rapist as a man, and after their ‘transition’ have gone on to assault further women with their penis. They have explicitly stated this so I don’t think they are trying to belittle the victims, but just report on what is a awful situation and how this rapist has manipulated the prison system to abuse more victims.

Personally I would call him a man and think he’s just trying it on - but I can see why the media is treading lightly here.

YANBU OP

Please write to your MP with everything you’ve said here and ask them WTAF they’re doing about it.

Thanks for your replies.

I think your points are really interesting. I can see from the point of view of both those who want self ID at any cost (including women losing their rights) will insist he is a woman, and that those fighting to oppose self ID will want him referred to as a woman to highlight the madness of this (which is what it has done to me). I agree that the media are not purposefully gaslighting the victims, but I do think that the victims are being gaslighted and it will be very bad for their recovery and mental health.

I have now completed the consultancy. It is dangerous and utterly insane to even consider allowing any man to self ID his way into a womens hospital, changing room, guide group etc. I have also completed a consultancy for the charity I run, which supports vulnerable woman and children including victims of the widely reported grooming gangs.

I was interested to read the letter in the Observer today - it seems many many women share both these concerns and also the fear of speaking out.

Thank you all for taking time to reply.

"If this man is a woman can anyone be a woman, even a rapist with a penis? I did not know a pre operative trans gendered woman could be put in a woman's prison,"
Every now and again I think maybe we're wrong and we should just accept self id and have more trust and then I read something like this and experience clarity again. What the fuck is this nonsense? Sympathies to the rapist who is experiencing doubts about his pronouns?Fuck off.

I remain utterly bewildered about where this has come from?

From what I have read not even the entire trans community approves of self ID. So why? It seems utterly illogical and dangerous and yet I have read threads where women questioning trans women entering womens spaces without a certificate and being called names and attacked as bigots.

Last night I came to the conclusion that homophobia on the far right and identity politics on the far left are both in favour and that the moderate squeezed middle and scared of being called names and don't want to get involved. Today it all feels less clear.

It was notable that last night when I was trying to start a discussion the men who had been very animated in a Brexit debate turned and started talking about football. I pulled them up on it and they were all "Oh, I don't know, it doesn't really affect me". Shame on them!

Apologies for so many posts, its really helping me understand and I am still struggling to debate in RL

I agree that the media are not purposefully gaslighting the victims, but I do think that the victims are being gaslighted and it will be very bad for their recovery and mental health.

With regard to gas-lighting, judges have been instructed to enforce the use of preferred pronouns in court for trans people accused of a crime. This potentially raises the possibility of a woman who has been raped having to describe what happened to her while using the pronouns she and her. In addition to the psychological distress, the struggle to remember the correct pronouns could potentially impact her ability to give her evidence clearly and coherently.

18 September 2018 Daily Mail:

"Outrage as transgender child groomer who is ‘legally female’ is put in women’s jail leaving inmates terrified
Transgender paedophile Michelle Lewin has been moved to a female prison

Lewin, born Shaun Pudwell was jailed indefinitely in 2007 for grooming girls
Some of the 400 women in the same jail are said to be 'terrified' of the move "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6179341/Outrage-transgender-child-groomer-legally-female-womens-jail.html

I have seen that there are many of these people in prison. If you are attacking someone using your penis you are not a trans gendered woman - logic dictates that. These are predators with cluster B personality disorders and paraphilia, surely medical and legal professionals can see that if I can?

This is absolutely brain melting.

@RepealtheGRA

My MP is Craig Whittaker. A man who voted against gay marriage despite having the highest concentration of female same sex couples in the UK in Hebden Bridge, which is in his ward. He is an appalling man, just appalling. He attacked his son at the local petrol station, punching him in the face several times. The police were called and he was arrested. His son then left the country and moved to Australia in off circumstances. Craig was caught changing his Wikapedia entry to conceal his domestic violence and reported. He was also caught out in the expenses scandal. The local party member who reported him was black balled and thrown out of the conservative party.

I do not know his views on trans issues but I do know that he has a history of silencing people - his ex wife, his son, wikipedia etc and he is intensely homophobic so I will write to him, but with little hope.

James Kirkup Spectator:

(extract)

"Karen White attacked some of those women in New Hall prison, a women’s prison. Karen White, then awaiting trial for rape, was in New Hall because Karen White says Karen White is transgender. Born male and still possessing a male body (including the penis used to rape that pregnant woman), Karen White was treated as a woman by the prison service, because Karen White said Karen White was a woman.

And Karen White is one of the reasons quite a lot of people have reservations about changing the law to allow people to change their recognised gender on the basis of their own testimony.

There is a common criticism of journalism and political argument on this topic, a criticism that is often voiced by trans-rights advocates and others. It can be summarised as: “By discussing trans rights and cases of abuse in the same context, you are demonising trans people and implying that trans people are sexual predators and perverts. That is harmful because it adds to the stigma some trans people experience. Please stop.”

And if that was indeed the point being made, I think that would be a fair response.

But it’s not. The concern that has been raised about self-ID and other trans-rights policies is about safeguarding, about protecting vulnerable people from manipulative and abusive men. The expressed gender identity of those men doesn’t really come into it, except where those people might use the concept of gender to exploit those rules and facilitate their abuse." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/the-cautionary-tale-of-karen-white-the-transgender-rapist/

James Kirkup Spactator

(extract)

"To recap: the State put a rapist in a jail full of vulnerable women. That rapist then sexually assaulted four of those women. MPs wanted to know how that happened, and to question the ministers responsible for those events. The Speaker of the House of Commons said they could not do so.

The story of transgender policy in Britain today is a story of political failure, where many people fail to do their job and speak openly about matters of clear public interest. Writing about it this year, I’ve grown accustomed to that failure, though no less angry about it.

But even by the dismal standards of the trans debate, where supposedly responsible figures routinely shirk their duties to appease a small, aggressive group of activists and lobbyists, John Bercow’s decision strikes me as repulsive, a disgusting abdication of responsibility that brings shame on its author and his office."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-state-has-failed-karen-whites-victims/

OP, are you both Shiklah and Shikah? Confused.!

@Shikah

OMG how completely horrific. Wow. Perhaps email Penny Mourdant then and cc him and Baroness Winterbourne on [email protected]

Somebody needs to explain what’s going on, because you’re right, this is gaslighting of victims and must be adding to their distress.

Oh god I cleared all my cookies when I was checking a flight price this morning and must have messed it all up re my user name - supposed to be Shiklah - I will swap back!

I think that is right now. This is why my DC say I shouldn't be chatting on the internet :)

Yes Craig Whittaker is a stain on the House of Commons. A disgrace. Every time I see him lurking sycophantically behind May my blood pressure goes thru the roof. These self promoting narcissist are deciding what is best for women. The arrogance of it is spectacular. We know he doesn't care about women, but I will email Penny about this. Thank you for your advice.

I am a woman and I accept Rose West is a woman, no one is saying women cannot be dangerous predators. But these are men. Men with a fetish and a personality disorder that allows them to be free from social norms that would contain this behaviour in privacy in the general population. I just don't know if they are ignoring that fact or are so hard of thinking they don't see it. A transsexual person with body dysmorphia and a rapist cannot exist in the same person. One excludes the other. It is obvious. Or am I wrong?

I totally see the points being made about using "If trans women are women then Karen white is a woman" as a straw man argument to destroy the whole ideology and it is a very smart move, but stepping away from that I am thinking of the victims of these men. I will be even more specific, I am thinking about the female and child victims of these men. They will self ID as women and be carers in the group homes my vulnerable clients live in, mental health wards where women try and rebuild themselves, domestic violence shelters etc. This is obvious to anyone who understands predatory male behaviour - I am not alone in seeing this, why are the government and media playing such a dangerous game?

The Police where I live have treated women and girls with contempt for many years and I am shaking with anger. Grooming gangs, endless grooming gangs, Jimmy Saville now this. Shame on them all.

As with all things, those that suffer will be the poor, the vulnerable and those without a voice. Whilst Penny has tea and biscuits with Pink News and pats herself on the back for being such a liberal and enlightened individual a male predator will be eyeing up jobs at Yards Wood and looking forward to spending his days strip searching the most traumatised and victimised women in society.

Disgraceful.

Am I right in saying that the GRA changes have already been approved for Scotland, or have I got the wrong info?

if you have a penis you are biologically a man imho and should not be put in a woman’s prison. By all means go to a segregated part of a man’s prison with other trans criminals.
I think self-Id is very harmful if you’re a pre-op trans woman. If you’ve had the bottom half surgery then by all means come into women’s spaces, but not before.
And I’m not talking cubicles in swimming pool changing rooms as they are often unisex anyway - but where vulnerable people reside (prisons, refuges etc).

I'm glad you've put this in AIBU Shiklah, will open a few more eyes hopefully.

There is a petition:
'Review rules that allow male prisoners who identify as female in women's prisons
Fair Play For Women is calling for MPs to ensure the relevant prison rules are urgently reviewed, in full consultation with women's organisations. Prison guidance PSI-17/2016 allows male prisoners who identity as female to be moved to a female prison at the discretion of a Transgender Case Board.

No women's organisations were consulted when the prison rules were updated in 2016. The effect on female prisoners has not been adequately assessed. Current rules are not fit for purpose and must be urgently reviewed.'
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

Karen White does not think she is a woman any more than I think I’m a strawberry and that is the whole point.

If she says she’s trans then she is. Therefore she is a woman and goes to a woman’s prison. You can’t say she’s not a man. How do we know she’s not a woman if she says she is.

She sums up the problems with self ID 100%!

thank you for your replies

I put it in AIBU as I knew Feminist pages wouldn't get a range of replies. But on this thread not one person has said that self ID is acceptable.

I am very keen to hear from ANYONE who thinks self ID is acceptable and their reasons. Feeling sympathy for one marginalised group does not condone the oppression of another much larger group - everyone can see that can't they?

Also where are the trans men in this debate? I note no 'trans men are men' lights up national monuments. Why? I feel strongly it is because they are female and only bloody males matter?! Can someone shed light on this.

I am very grateful for the kindness and respect shown on this thread, which is unlike what I have seen in my research on twitter. It is frightening to me that so few woman dare speak out.

The only way they've kept this consultation from being absolutely flooded by outrage against trans self ID, is by keeping information out of the hands of women. Women outside activist circles still don't know that "trans women are women" can include a bearded man with no dysphoria and no intent of ever so much as crossdressing. They think this is about rights for fully transitioned people.

So how do we ensure they find out?

Billboards of this photograph karen white with text
'Under self ID this is a woman'

But that would be 'transphobic' I suppose. How could that be transphobic. This is seriously fucked up.

I feel like I need to take action.