To think this isn't fair of school?

[cricketmum84]

I'm sure I read a thread about this a few months ago but can't find it now.

DD is year 5. Very well behaved, bright and doing well but quite shy and anxious. This year her class teacher has developed a system where group 1( the brightest kids) have to sit with a kid from group 5 (not so bright, some behavioural issues).

She has come home tonight quite upset because boy x from group 5 is basically a twat (my words not hers). He has thrown her stuff on the floor, been saying mean things about her. He's not listened to the teachers instructions so DD has had to explain the work to him and help him then for in trouble for not finishing her own work. She was too nervous to speak to the teacher about what he had done so just accepted the telling off.

Is it just me or is this really lazy teaching?? And I really don't think it's fair to effectively make a 9 year old girl responsible for another child's learning! Isn't this what teaching assistants are for?

WIBU to kick off with school tomorrow? My DH thinks I'm massively overreacting! I also wonder if by me stepping in and speaking to them I'm enabling her to continue being too nervous to speak to the teacher?

There is actually proven benefits to more advanced kids by having then explain to younger or less advanced kids - that aspect isn't lazy teaching it's actually well established.

However they obviously can't be dealing with complex behavioural problems or be expected to simultaneously complete their own work too - if they're working collaboratively then it's group work not individual can't be both.

At the very least the teacher needs to be aware that your DD is too shy to speak up.

In my Y4 class, the children are grouped in a variety of ways according to the activity. Sometimes they are grouped according to ability and sometimes I mix them. It seems very unfair if the OP's daughter has to sit next to someone disruptive for every lesson.

There is loads of research that this type of teaching/assisting supports the lower ability children. You can split it by sex, ability, method, etc and all research I know of says it absolutely is key to helping the weaker students immensely - The higher ability student not much but isn't equality what the people want? Build up the bottom and if the top suffers - what's the harm as they must have advantages anyway? Where are the public vs private school advocates as they should be salivating over the chance to say how great this situation is! Personally, while i know it helps the bottom I wouldn't want my child missing out on developing to assist in the social experiment.

There is actually proven benefits to more advanced kids by having then explain to younger or less advanced kids - that aspect isn't lazy teaching it's actually well established.
It's only well established in certain conditions and the more able child has to actually have confidently understood the material first.
Having a group of more able students who complete a topic quicker preparing a revision activity or revision presentation for the class - example of where explaining to others is helpful
Giving a leadership role to a more able child during an application or consolidation project - useful learning activity
Having an older child be a buddy or mentor to younger students in that area (E.g. we have GCSE students who buddy up with y7s and 8s for extra help) - useful learning activity

Having more able children on the table purely to repeat instructions and field endless questions - not good teaching and actually quite lazy

It was the same 20 years ago. When I'd finished a text book, I'd be sent to the next classroom to fetch one from the year above. By year 5 I'd finished the maths and English. I then spent that time issuing and marking spelling tests to classmates who had been off sick and walking around the classroom helping anyone who struggled with maths. I don't feel like I collaboratively learned anything, I was just bored.

Fortunately they never paired badly behaved children with the brighter ones. We had classes of almost 40 with no TA so I think the teachers just couldn't cope on their own.

My classroom is a community, not just a room in which 30 individuals learn. It isn't possible to always do what is best for every individual - you have to have a balance. Just as I have used this strategy (lower ability seated with higher) many times, I have also refused, many times, to sit an extremely disruptive child beside a "role model student", which is what it tells me to do on the PIP to meet their need. There are no easy answers.

Happened to my DD. I told the teacher she needed to be moved. Mine was paired with the class trouble maker who actively prevented her from working and she then got into trouble. She’s a bright, able girl who just doesn’t get told off at school so it really stang, all the more so because in any other situation she’d have flown through the work that had been set. Class trouble maker should also have had a TA but the TA was away that week. Well, not my (or DD’s) problem. In the end I actually ended up advocating for the other child, questioning why they’d been left without their dedicated TA or a suitable stand in.

It’s not fair at all. Bollocks to all the research that says it’s good for the lower ability child. Yeah, great, it may well be. It is of absolutely zero benefit to the more able child. Why aren’t they paired with someone who makes them think and extends their knowledge? Where’s their learning going to be improved? It isn’t. It’s the teacher’s role to teach, not my child’s.

This is common practice in many primary schools. As previously said, the aim is to boost the learning of the lower attaining children but also to allow the higher attaining children to ‘deepen their knowledge’ by effectively being ‘mini teachers’ and being able to explain things. That said, the teacher should be keeping a close eye on things and it should not be to the detriment of your dd. Hope you get sorted!

It’s not fair at all. Bollocks to all the research that says it’s good for the lower ability child. Yeah, great, it may well be. It is of absolutely zero benefit to the more able child. Why aren’t they paired with someone who makes them think and extends their knowledge? Where’s their learning going to be improved? It isn’t. It’s the teacher’s role to teach, not my child’s

Strange how these "pairings" are always at the back of the class or to the side. Never at the front where things can be kept an eye on. And also how they can spot a red dot on the bottom of the shoes or an earring at 300 feet away but sone how miss pencil cases being thrown around and kids being kicked under the table right under their nose.

They know.

I really don't have an issue with her being paired with a less able student who listens to the teacher and maybe just needs a bit of guidance. I agree that someone else can explain the same thing a totally different way and you suddenly get it.

My issue is that she has been picked to buddy up with a class member who has had behavioural issues since nursery class!

Why should my daughter spend every day sat next to someone who is saying nasty things to her and throwing her things on the floor just because the powers that be have decided she may be a good influence on him?

Her teacher knows that she is shy and very quiet. She went through an episode of having panic attacks in class last year that culminated in her being taken to hospital when she fainted. Thankfully she has been ok since but this is making me worry that she could go backwards again.

Sorry, all the research I've seen (and its a lot) says that teaching/reviewing materials with equal or higher level peers helps the person teaching/reviewing not going over the simplistic material with lower staged/lower ability children - hence why study groups are strongly advocated for similarly staged/abled students. The pairing of divergent abilities shows only the lower ability student benefiting.

mulderitsmeX I wasn’t implying the OP’s dd was a twat, I would never say that about any child - hence my view that the OP was one for saying it about another young child!

How long does model child have to wait for behaviour issue child to start mirroring them? And what gauntlet of abuse, violence etc does model have to endure first.

What if model child starts to mirror bi child? I think it's v poor practise.

@Beesandfrogsandfleas maybe you should meet him. He was taught in a special department for most of last year after throwing a chair at his teacher.

Don't worry, I've been called worse 😂

Cricket with anxiety and panic attacks and your dd miserable I would be straight in to the school.

Tell them that they probably overlooked it. Ask for her to be moved or you can't send her back.

How long does model child have to wait for behaviour issue child to start mirroring them? And what gauntlet of abuse, violence etc does model have to endure first

Well quite. And it's most bizarre this behaviour is still somehow a surprise in year five and they still plough at it despite the fact it's been unsuccessful for 5 years so far

I recently had to email my Dds secondary thanks to some help with the email from the geniuses on MN it would seem a group of approaching 6 foot boys moving tables, moving Dds chair with her on it , kicking her under the table, shouting through her ears, throwing her stuff around are invisible to the naked eye

Can't get your kid into another school because "numbers and space" whilst classrooms simultaneously appear to be vast black holes where all this shit can go on unnoticed .

Don't think so...

No it is not fair!
Once again children are expected to put up with things that adults wouldn’t.
Let’s imagine you sign up for a French class or dance class. A group of adults, some complete beginners, some already know the basics, some are not that interested and spend most of the time on their phone instead of listening.
People are paired up: of course you do it by ability! If you pair up a skilled one with a beginner the skilled one will complain that they aren’t learning anything.

Only in schools are children told not to complain because actually you learn empathy and kindness when in fact they are meant to learn math and English.

In the real world it is accepted that level groups is how everybody has a chance to improve, and that includes the skilled ones.

cricket I think twat is quite mild actually, I really hope you get sone not with the teacher and your poor dd can be sat with someone who isn't a twat

@Monday, it doesn't even manage to teach everyone empathy and kindness, it didn't with me.

This is lazy teaching.
Amd yes there was a thread on that Subject a few months ago where teachers themselves would say it not acceptable.

Your dd needs to let to assertive and stand up for herself.
She also needs your backing and door you to go and see the teacher and explain what’s going in, on your dd pov.

But over if this ‘technique’ carry on and the teacher doesn’t change what she is doing, I would go and see the HT.
Because it can be damaging to the child in question (self esteem in particular). Because there is a risk for your dd to slow down her own learning if she spends all her time explaining etc... rather than working herself.
At the very least, you shouod see a ‘rotation’ between the lower group children to thatbthe same child isn’t lumbered with the most difficult knees all the time.

Also worth remembering that if your dd says nothing, she is more likely to stay working with that child as the teacher might well only see the calm and the silence rather than the fact she is struggling.

(I’ve had the same issue with dc2 btw. But a quick chat with the teacher to explain it was making dc2 very anxious and unhappy was enough to ensure that dc2 was put with another child. That was enough to solve the issue)

It has to work for your dd however, the reason for doing this is it helps to embed knowledge to teach a peer. The theory should be helping your dd but behaviour management is the responsibility of the teacher.

As for a child in class that has behavioural problems, why is itbtatbthat child doesn't have a 1-1, for the safety of the other children and the teacher?

I'm guessing money. I think sometimes teachers expect the kids to take responsibility for a peers additional needs out of desperation.

Have phoned school this morning and asked for her teacher to call me when she is free. I'm not going in aggressive, just to explain that I don't have an issue with her helping others but this particular kid is disruptive and I'm concerned the anxiety could start up again.