To think this isn't fair of school?

[cricketmum84]

I'm sure I read a thread about this a few months ago but can't find it now.

DD is year 5. Very well behaved, bright and doing well but quite shy and anxious. This year her class teacher has developed a system where group 1( the brightest kids) have to sit with a kid from group 5 (not so bright, some behavioural issues).

She has come home tonight quite upset because boy x from group 5 is basically a twat (my words not hers). He has thrown her stuff on the floor, been saying mean things about her. He's not listened to the teachers instructions so DD has had to explain the work to him and help him then for in trouble for not finishing her own work. She was too nervous to speak to the teacher about what he had done so just accepted the telling off.

Is it just me or is this really lazy teaching?? And I really don't think it's fair to effectively make a 9 year old girl responsible for another child's learning! Isn't this what teaching assistants are for?

WIBU to kick off with school tomorrow? My DH thinks I'm massively overreacting! I also wonder if by me stepping in and speaking to them I'm enabling her to continue being too nervous to speak to the teacher?

there is huge learning in teaching
If you’re consolidating your own learning by explaining it to an interested person. But there’s no benefit in being stuck with a badly behaved kid who doesn’t want to learn, throws your books on the floor and obstructs you from working.

It depends how it's done, for which subjects etc. (Though MN consensus is almost always that bright children should never sit with anyone who isn't academic otherwise it's a sign the teacher can't teach and wants to have a carer or unpaid teaching assistant).

if she isn't getting any extension work then that is an issue
if she sometimes has the role of coach / leader (given to her by the teacher) then that is reasonable
if she is always being directed to support the peer then that's unreasonable
if she's using private study time to explain to the peer instead of working (and hasn't been told to take that role by the teacher) then she needs to be reminded by you to get on with her work and not spend lots of time explaining work.
if the teacher is always putting disruptive students next to quiet compliant students who'll take the shit and not say anything then that's an issue
if your DC is one of those students who doesn't say anything then she needs to be taught how to advocate for herself (useful life skill before someone cried victim blaming)

Generally the best way to do pairings with a mix is to do a (hate categories but needs must) high with a low middle child and a high middle with a low child. Generally you'd tend to keep the 2 ends from being direct partners, although it can be good to have a mix of abilities on one table (if you use tables).

It could be any number of situations or reasons. YANBU to arrange to have a polite and reasonable chat with the teacher. YABU to kick off and think your child shouldn't ever be sat with a child you'd deem to not be good enough.

ifyour DC is one of those students who doesn't say anything then she needs to be taught how to advocate for herself (useful life skill before someone cried victim blaming)

I really wish being shy quiet and compliant wasn't seen as some character flaw and used to blame for the fact the situation goes on for too long.

You can't deliberatly pick the children with these characteristics and simultaneously say they should speak up. The whole reason they are there is cos you know they won't

One of my dd's got in this situation a lot as she is a very helpful and encouraging person and will work well (as well as can be expected if there are behavioural issues) with the children no-one else wants to work with. I don't think it has done her any harm but I think that's because she's confident to speak up, wouldn't put up with any bad behaviour and it wasn't all the time. If it's a pairing of a difficult (often boy) child with a very compliant (often girl) child then it's hard to see what's in it for the 'helper'.

Some people are saying the classroom should not be split into ability groups. I'm confused - how on earth can you make sure the work is appropriate for each individual child if you don't?

As for this case, I would say it could work well if the lower ability child wanted to learn from the higher, and was willing to listen and do their best. If they're just using them as someone to irritate, and disrupt their learning, not acceptable.

Your dd called another child a twat and she’s 9?? My goodness!

This is a normal pedagogy method, less bright child with brighter. I do it all the time, so Billy sits with Joe, because a) Joe’s work ethic is good and b) he is a nice boy who will help Billy and his way of explaining might get through if sometimes mine isn’t. But, big BUT, no way would I make a nice child tolerate a poorly behaved child for the sake of trying to control the behaviour.

Call the teacher and ask to have the poorly behaved child away from your dd. No need for drama.

Request a meeting with the teacher about this. Books being thrown onto the floor should tell you two things:

A- the other child is either a bully or has a history of poor behaviour at school.
B- action needs to be taken.

No, Maelstrop, the OP already said that her daughter didn't use the word twat.

I haven't read all the posts. I simply went in and told the teacher and head that in no uncertain terms was my child to help or do team projects. full stop.
she is gifted and works really well but it wasn't her place to teach others or do the work for the whole team (team project set over the weekend where the other child doesn't even show up yet the mark is given to two participants) sorry not happening on my shift.
30 years later and it stills riles the heck out of me!
she can learn to co-operate and be sympathetic to the needs of others as a young adult.

This really tears me as I know that when its just a learning at different levels, it does help largely.

But I'm seeing cases with my DC's schools where it really doesn't. When it behavioural it as in DS's class its affecting the children like OP's example, and when its down to unsupported Learning Disabilities its hitting the child its meant to be helping as they see the gulf between learning (as in DD's class). That's just two of the biggest examples.

OP - I think you should have a quiet word with the teacher. Your DD shouldn't be taking flack when she has been affected by this other child's behaviour.

I'm beginning to think it's one of those areas where theory simply doesn't work, or at least not often. In theory it should be great to have mixed ability pairs. In practice I see the lower partner dragging down the higher more often than the other way around. A lot depends on the culture of the school, and the attitudes of the particular group of kids.

At the very least these sorts of pairings should be reviewed regularly - changing every half term is quite normal.

No one cares how bright the child is or isn't who is sat next to the kids

If they need alot of help though the ta and teacher should he sorting that as you know, shock horror the other kid might have work to do...

And we aren't talking a little bit badly behaved are we. Come on. We are talking books/stuff thrown in the floor , bullying behaviour bad enough to be distressing the child.

You can't pretend it's not happening by selectively choosing children to sit them next to who won't speak up.

But go ahead, please tell us kids should put up with that

Is it just me or is this really lazy teaching?? And I really don't think it's fair to effectively make a 9 year old girl responsible for another child's learning! Isn't this what teaching assistants are for?

It's you.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the fact you think there is a Teaching assistant available for every child who either struggles to understand or struggles to behave, or both. Do you know nothing about state education ?

There's a big difference in pairing a 'brighter' child with a child who doesn't learn as quickly. It's another thing to pair that child with a child who is disruptive or disrespectful to the child who is trying to help.

My son was paired with a number of 'slower' learners and it worked well for both of them. My son learnt kindness and patience with those who learnt at a different pace to him. Those he worked with learnt that it was OK to ask for extra help and that needing that help was not something to feel badly about.

I suggest you speak to the teacher. Tell them that you have no problem with your DD helping another student, but not if that student doesn't want or isn't appreciative of her help.

I remember this when did was in primary school.She was constantly put with 2 boys for project work.I caught her one morning at 5.30am doing project work because the boys had done nothing and it was due in that day.
It put her off collaborative working as even when put with boys who would work they talked over her and wouldn't listen to her ideas.

And the best way to consolidate learning is by being able to explain something to another person.
So if a child hasn't understood what a teacher has said, another child is supposed to be able to explain it to that child better than the teacher? That is just bullshit.
Too often these situations are exploiting girls - and it nearly always seems to be girls - who are compliant and well behaved and so won't make a fuss in the classroom. Even if their own learning suffers. Even if they go home and are upset there about what is happening. And then the child is blamed for not creating a fuss in the classroom.

Sadly this has been common practice for at least 30 years.
I spent my English lessons (not set) throughout secondary paired with someone from the bottom of the class. Occasionally it was a lovely girl who just didn’t get the way the teacher explained things and panicked in tests, we got on well and it probably benefitted us both. Most of the rest of the time it was one of two boys who hassled, harassed and bullied me any way they could, most noteable was the lesson I spent having a basketball bounced off my head. Strangely I did worse in English than any other subject including those where we also weren’t set but didn’t adopt this hellish method.
Please stand up for your daughter OP, she shouldn’t have her education disrupted for some theoretical ideal in which this actually works.

bees as to why you are insinuating op's dd is a twat when she's not the one who is damaging other children's work.

Aaaanyway op definitely put an end to this, quiet, well behaved girls shouldn't be disasvantaged by unruly boys...

She will not learn positive lessons from this.

She will learn that some people are just lazy and rude. She will learn that some people are not worth her time.

I was the bright kid who got stuck helping the struggling kid. So was my DH. So we’re so many other bright people I know. It did not teach empathy, it taught disdain.

I think I am at times too easy going and rarely complain. But I would be kicking up a huge fuss about this. Your daughters education matters.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the fact you think there is a Teaching assistant available for every child who either struggles to understand or struggles to behave, or both. Do you know nothing about state education ?

Why does the fact there are not enough teaching assistants mean that the OP shouldn't prioritise her own child's education? This 9 year old is not a TA.

I hate when they do this is my school, the more able kids are almost always the ones who suffer and to be honest, most of the teachers think it's shit too.

I really wish being shy quiet and compliant wasn't seen as some character flaw and used to blame for the fact the situation goes on for too long.
Being quiet isn't a character flaw. Learning when and how to speak out is a useful life skill.
Go to work and need to whistleblow?Speaking out.
Need to raise an issue in the workplace? Speaking out.
Need to raise something at college or university? Speaking up.
In an unhealthy relationship and need advice to get out? Speaking out.
Being bullied or seeing someone else being bullied? Speaking out.

We aren't doing children any favours if we don't teach them key skills. Teaching chikdren to speak out isn't changing thwir personality.

By not teaching children how to speak up we get adults who end up being walked over and/or get irritated and start threads that boil down to 'AIBU to think MIL/DP/manager/friend should have... No i haven't actually mentioned it to them but they should have just known....'
You can't deliberatly pick the children with these characteristics and simultaneously say they should speak up. The whole reason they are there is cos you know theywon't
Except.... I didn't say they should be picked like that. As in made it quite clear picking children who'll take shit isn't ok:
ifthe teacher is always putting disruptive students next to quiet compliant students who'll take the shit and not say anything then that's an issue

Seating strategies are complex. There's no perfect rule for them and there are pros and cons to most strategies. It's about knowing the children and using a range of classroom management strategies.

As I said, OP should have a chat with the teacher and raise concerns, but some of these 'my child will never do group work, my child will never sit next to red table children, i told teachers in no uncertain terms how to do their seating plan/lesson planninh' etc comments are quite arsey and unreasonable.

But sone kids juts aren't like that. And no teachers aren't always receptive to it when they do. Dd tried once. She got shouted out, he refused to repeat what he said and she never bothered him again. Just sat there putting up with it.

Dont you dare put this on the kids. The adults are meant to look out for them.

I would complain. The odd bit of explaining to a nice child she is sitting near is one thing but she shouldn't be responsible for another child's behaviour. I get that there aren't enough TAs but that's not this girls problem.