... to be sad at the way Christmas seems to have changed?

[MereDintofPandiculation]

I was brought up to view Christmas as a magical time, but a time above all for giving. Getting together as a family (grandparents cousins, aunts, uncles) because it's one of the few times that the family does get together. Making sure no-one is left out. Learning to enjoy yourself and have a happy time with others even if your home is full of relatives, or you spent an hour on Christmas morning travelling to other relatives who don't make the bread sauce and brandy butter quite as well as your mother.

Nowadays on MN "family" means "me, DH, DC" and Christmas is all about receiving and not giving. "You have a right to spend Christmas in your own home". Everything centres around making it perfect for the children, without any thought of modelling for them the qualities of thinking about other people.

AIBU in thinking this not only makes life more unpleasant for older relatives who are excluded or barely tolerated, but that it also bodes ill for the future, in moving society more towards "it's all about me" and less about taking responsibility as a society for the welfare of all its members?

Yes, I really dislike the attitude that if you don't want to do something, just don't do it. Don't go to your best friend's wedding, it's an invitation not a summons etc.

Sometimes you do have to put yourself out to avoid hurting others. And if that means having Great Aunt Ellen over for Christmas day because she's nowhere else to go, even though you'd rather spend the day in your pyjamas and having Indian food for dinner, maybe it's not that big a sacrifice really.

Your OP seems to rather assume all Christmases used to be like your childhood one.

My memories of Christmas when very young were spending Christmas day with my immediate family and then being forced to wear uncomfortable clothes and go and visit relatives we only saw once a year, who mostly ignored me and my siblings to have adult conversations with my parents on the 26th and 27th.

Then when we got past about age 10, my parents decided we were too old for Christmas and we used to only get one single gift (something like a jumper) and no particular effort was made over food/decorating etc.

Nothing much magical about any of that.

@Bloobs

Also, I think this may have something to do with women becoming less willing to run around facilitating everyone's needs/demands and smoothing ruffled feathers, and being more willing to say no.

Christmas involves a fuck of a lot of wifework and in many families it is done mostly by women - the present-buying, the wrapping, the journey planning, the packing (or conversely, preparing the house for guests) etc etc etc. Then the cooking, managing overexcited kids, tidying up etc. I'm sure some men do their share but there are a lot of threads on here from exhausted women doing it all, and others telling them they can say no, which I agree with.

If a woman can actually have herself something resembling a break at Christmas by saying no to in-laws and opting for a day in her pjs on the sofa, I support that.

^ This. Well said Bloobs.

that behaviour tolerated 50 years ago is no longer tolerated

Absolutely, and one of the behaviours that was tolerated 50 years ago and which enabled those giant family Christmases of which you have such happy memories, was the extent to which the load of inviting, ferrying, cooking, cleaning, hosting, serving, present-buying, card-writing, decorating etc etc devolved invisibly onto women.

In 2018, women are far less likely to be prepared to do this, and I for one think this is a good thing.

I remember my childhood being a battle (all be it a passive aggressive manipulative one) where my mum, dad and step mum guilted us about spending too much time with one or the other. This is as a teenager/young adult. No matter how fair I tried to be it was never enough for someone and they moaned. Add into this family living hours from each other, logistically my sister and I paid the price for my parents divorce at Christmas. I don’t really look back on it fondly. As a result when I emigrated I swore I’d not come home for a Christmas, ever. It’s too much drama and my children won’t be guilted like that. It’s hard enough sorting out holidays back home without it being a festive time of year.
Happy to spend the holidays with DP’s mum and family but they don’t want a fuss.
The reality is that lots of families no longer live close enough geographically to accommodate Christmas together regularly or you have families like mine where there are divorces that turn 2 sets of grandparents into 4 sets, and the drama that comes with that, which is no fault of mine or DP. So why should we subject our children to that drama and stress?

Making sure no-one is left out.

As soon as the adult children have partners, it's not possible to get the whole family together. My MIL throws a strop if we dare to suggest to her that we're not going to hers for Christmas because she wants her sons together - it never crosses her selfish mind that she has 2 DIL's who also have parents who'd like to see them at Christmas. Maybe if we all lived in the same town it would be possible but when she's in the West Midlands and the other sets of parents are in Rotherham and Newcastle, it doesn't work!

TBH the 2 DILs rebelled and got sick of spending time with a MIL who only wanted the sons and not their wives, who were excluded from her day of reminiscence about the sons' childhoods and may as well have been invisible. Our husbands visit together a few days before Christmas and both couples spend Christmas in their own homes.

As a child we always opened presents, went to church, then drove for a couple of hours to relatives for 'lunch' and a stop in at other relatives before the two hour journey home for bedtime. Neither parent drank due to the driving and it was all quite a rush to be honest.

I used to watch people on tv in sitcoms and soaps chilling out and falling asleep in front of the queen's speech or chatting into the evening with extreme envy, our christmas didn't involve any actual relaxing.

Now we spread the visits out. We spend the morning ourselves, have lunch with some GPs, come home ourselves and chill out. Maybe boxing day with other GPs. Extended family on 28th or 29th December depending on other people's work shifts. It's all a lot more relaxing and pleasant given we both work ft up to xmas eve.

Sometimes you do have to put yourself out to avoid hurting others.

You see, the thing is, you don't. It is an option, but it is not compulsory. It's astonishing how freeing it is to cast off the should and musts, which, again, devolve disproportionately on women.

I say this as someone who annually straps a tree onto a car, packs it, drives with DH and our six year old six hours to the ferry, and then drives three more hours, and rents an apartment in our home city and runs around buying the makings of Christmas dinner for 25 from scratch on Christmas eve, purely so that we can host all of both our families for Christmas. But I certainly don't think anyone else 'should' do this, and it's an entirely team effort between DH and me, as well as up for negotiation annually.

I think it's all about compromise really. People should try to ensure no one is left reluctantly alone on Christmas day. But people should also ensure that they're not imposing all kinds of hassle and difficulty on others, by demanding that all arrangements to include them should be on their terms only.

yabu. I have 4 kids and im a lone parent. I dont drive or live close to family so how am I expected to visit anyone on xmas day? family already have their own plans so wont be coming to mine either. I will be spending xmas with just me and the kids.

"It's astonishing how freeing it is to cast off the should and musts, which, again, devolve disproportionately on women."

Well that surely depends on what the consequences are for others. I mean, if you don't want to attend a funeral but know your bereaved best friend would like you there for support, it might be 'freeing' to say no, but it's also unkind and selfish.

I think the people being advised to prioritise their own immediate family are usually those who have very difficult wider families who are trying to pull them in five different directions so they need to protect their own interests. I've never seen anyone suggest that they should leave their lovely elderly grandma all on her own on christmas because they can't be bothered to go collect her.

The tradition in my family has always been that the young kids have christmas at home but extended family is always welcome to join them there. Then the visits happen in the next few days. We keep that up now. We always invite anyone who might be alone on Christmas (and will collect and drop them off, we have space for people to stay).

@ LRDtheFeministDragon So could you rephrase it for me? In a way that asks the question and explains why I think the way I do? And which doesn't come over as smug, but at the same time doesn't say "I know I'm completely outdated, have led a sheltered life and am completely wrong about the way I think about this"? (And of course I felt my opinion was right - you don't expect people to say "this is my opinion but of course it's totally wrong". That doesn't preclude being persuaded I was wrong and changing my opinion )

It's a serious ask. I have real difficulty in understanding the subtleties of communication (eg: "some other time, maybe" - it took me a long time to learn that that meant "no way!"), which means I say things that unintentionally upset people. Less so nowadays because I've worked hard at learning to understand things less literally.

I was a child of the fifties and for us the big meal on Christmas Day was tea, with sandwiches, jelly and blancmange and Christmas cake. That was when family visited. I don't remember much about Christmas lunch except that my father made the Christmas pudding and one was always kept for Easter.
On Boxing Day we went to family friends in the afternoon and played games or cards, and again there would be a lovely tea.
I think things were simpler, but there was less money and less to buy.
DH's family were better off and they did family lunch, but it was only his immediate family plus grandparents, a walk in the afternoon and a big tea.
They also went to family friends on Boxing Day afternoon.
There is so much advertising now and so much emphasis on making Christmas perfect. And of course you must have that new sofa 'in time for Christmas' whereas my mother saved up for a canteen of cutlery in the January sales.
I can't see the point in looking back tbh.
Although we can all cite examples of poverty most of us have things my grandparents couldn't imagine (washing machine? What's wrong with the copper? Dishwasher? What would I want with one of them? Television? What's wrong with the wireless? etc etc.)

Yabu.

We are really lucky that we have nice family who love spending Xmas together. But towards the end of my grandparents lives it was really hard to include them.

They were very elderly and had dementia and simply couldn’t cope with noisy small children around them all day. I prioritised making Christmas fun for my kids and saw them in a more relaxed setting on other days.

A textbook big family Christmas is not always achievable or desirable.

My parents don’t want us at their Christmas and have generally been miserable at Christmas even when I was a kid and we had the whole family dinner etc.

My mil is complete narcissist and doesn’t even get our dc her one gc a present despite getting other dc she knows one but fakes best grandma of the year every year so we now avoid. I don’t get on with my siblings and dh doesn’t really have much in common with his due to age gaps.

Me dh and dd for us is perfect but the amount of times smug people tell us how awful it is that we have to spend Christmas just the 3 of us. I’d absolutely love the Hollywood family round the table so it makes me sad when people act like we have a house but we don’t have that option. So we go for our version of best Christmas.

Have a choice not house*

We never had the big family Christmas. Your experience growing up is of your own family.

Also, as a child, you are somewhat insulated against the complexities of adult relationships within your family. You are now in those adult relationships.

Obviously YOUR Christmas has changed a great deal, but perhaps that’s for you to reflect on rather than assuming everybody else’s has.

No, that's not at all obvious. I think the most you can say is that the Christmases I remember are not like the Christmases I see being talked about on MN. And what's being made clear is that the Christmases I remember were not necessarily the norm in those days either.

Sadly my family are hard bloody work, try as I might I give up with aspiring to a 'happy family' Xmas day....but what I can do is make my children happy, make it all about them, giving me and DH pleasure at the same time. Our small family is as important as our extended one.

I hope my DC will model and learn from me visiting my family (individually) throughout the year, not just one day, helping them and caring about them. We give to charities, get kids involved in donations and talk a lot about the needs of others. For Christmas we'll write cards and buy gifts for others, they'll do thank you cards and thank people in person....they'll spend time with family and friends in December and have fun!

But this Xmas day, I've no interest in my family disputes and irritations, I don't want to listen to arguments about what time to eat and what food. I'm sick of the competitive buying which tries to make up for people not liking each other. I'm lucky, I get on with all of my family but together in one room? No thanks. I'll make my own family memories with my immediate family and do exactly as we please.

I’’ willing to bet that my parents had the same difficulties around who goes where/who comes to us/who hosts etc, but that I, as a child, was sheltered from it.

I think people should be able to organise the Xmas they want, it’s a stressful enough time as it is and the day should be up to you (or however as much is possible!)

I think it depends if your family are nice people who you want to spend time with, or not.

I remember my childhood Christmases,my parent separated and si we had Christmas day with my Mum,we had chicken for lunch(tickets we not a thing then).
On boxing day we went to my dad's who had a big party with all our aunts,uncles ,cousin, GP s and his partners family.No fighting or feuds until the year if the Risk game!
We used to get together when we had our own kids with our siblings,GPS invited to one of us.
Now we are spread around the country,my nephew's and nieces in their 20s and DD the youngest at 15.When they're older and have kids some of this will start again but we are at a hiatus now so visiting happens around Christmas but the day itself is quieter but just as nice.

I think it's far better now. People have the confidence to break away from what they "should" do to please others and do what they want instead. This is a good thing.