... to be sad at the way Christmas seems to have changed?

[MereDintofPandiculation]

I was brought up to view Christmas as a magical time, but a time above all for giving. Getting together as a family (grandparents cousins, aunts, uncles) because it's one of the few times that the family does get together. Making sure no-one is left out. Learning to enjoy yourself and have a happy time with others even if your home is full of relatives, or you spent an hour on Christmas morning travelling to other relatives who don't make the bread sauce and brandy butter quite as well as your mother.

Nowadays on MN "family" means "me, DH, DC" and Christmas is all about receiving and not giving. "You have a right to spend Christmas in your own home". Everything centres around making it perfect for the children, without any thought of modelling for them the qualities of thinking about other people.

AIBU in thinking this not only makes life more unpleasant for older relatives who are excluded or barely tolerated, but that it also bodes ill for the future, in moving society more towards "it's all about me" and less about taking responsibility as a society for the welfare of all its members?

But that's how you did Christmas, not how everyone did it. In our family you visited relatives in the run up & days after. The day itself was spent at home. In DHs family, close family went to them for lunch then Boxing Day was an open house & buffet for all to pop in if they liked. We do a bit of both, visit people in the run or go to events with them (Christmas markets and so on), the day itself is at home, then Boxing day DH still loves to do the buffet & have people pop in, bacuse it's a part of his childhood Christmas.

Lots of people have relatives who are selfish, whiny, attention-seeking or even worse. No reason why they should waste their time on these people because 'It's Christmas'.
And, for many others, it's much more practical to spread the extended family visits over two or three days, especially if there's some distance involved and/or two partners both have big families and no one has a massive enough house.

You've answered your own question in your post.

was brought up to view Christmas as a magical time, but a time above all for giving. Getting together as a family (grandparents cousins, aunts, uncles) because it's one of the few times that the family does get together.

I was brought up.

I.

That's YOUR experience of Christmas. Not everyone else's.

The thing is, if you have a narc relative who will spoil things for everyone else, I fail to see why one person should be allowed to spoil the enjoyment of all the others. It makes no sense.

I'm not talking about people with irritating little foibles (we all have those), I am talking about someone who systematically and deliberately tries to prevent others from enjoying themselves and sharing happy times. There's nothing to be done with those types.

Christmas now seems like a battleground more than peace on earth!
I had Christmas as a child with lots of relatives around or going to relatives houses. It was family together at the forefront. If we were at another relatives house we brought our presents/toys with us.

Last time I was with younger family at Christmas I was not happy with what went on. An older person had brought presents for all. I don't know nor would I ask the value of the presents. The younger family then decided the older person had not bought enough presents and then ordered goods by internet shopping on Christmas day using the older persons bank card!
It was not even about the DCs of the household. It was an item for adults!
Disgusted just does not cover it.

Well, a relative would have to be pretty bad before I'd see them alone for Christmas. A bit moany, a bit bossy, a bit attention seeking, I would still make sure they were included.

Absolutely obnoxious, vicious, or troublemaking is a different matter.

Christmas has never changed. I'm late 30s and we never went traipsing around to see other people on Christmas day. We always spent the day at home with just my parents and four siblings.

It's only been since moving in with DH that I learned about this ridiculous insistence on every single member of extended family having to get together on Christmas. Even though it's a logistical nightmare and no one enjoys the day because they spend most of it in the car.

Since having DS2 we stay at home and visit family during the days afterwards.

There's a lot I don't like about Christmas, but not having to see my family improves matters!

I might actually enjoy a big family Christmas if I had a nice family, who were genuinely loving and could have a good time together. But I don't, and a lot of people don't. You see so often on here stories of parents and PILs being bullying and demanding about getting Christmas their own way. Then everyone has to endure a bad atmosphere and controlling behaviour. I applaud anyone who says no to spending Christmas with family who are horrible. Why should they?

And that's aside from the misery and stupidity of dragging small children to and fro in winter weather with extra pissed drivers on the roads.

I was brought up to view Christmas as a magical time, but a time above all for giving. Getting together as a family (grandparents cousins, aunts, uncles) because it's one of the few times that the family does get together. Making sure no-one is left out. Learning to enjoy yourself and have a happy time with others even if your home is full of relatives, or you spent an hour on Christmas morning travelling to other relatives who don't make the bread sauce and brandy butter quite as well as your mother

I think you a looking back at Christmas's past with hugely rose-tinted spectacles. If you're not, you're very lucky. Not everybody is so lucky with their extended families.

I disagree. Why should children come before a lonely grandmother, a widowed aunt, a neighbour with no family or whatever? Why can't it be about compromising so that no one is left out, if possible. When did it become a childcentric occasion?

Well, for one, read the post below yours. And maybe the MIL thread. Lonely people aren't always sad objects of pity.

Secondly, it's often a question of logistics. One person is far easier to transfer than three or four. I actually don't mind the idea of having people over on Christmas Day, but dragging kids out of their home for the sake of older relatives who are in fact perfectly able to make their own way over is ridiculous.

I think it's partly a prestige thing. People like being the hosts, and don't want to give it up, and don't like changing THEIR Christmas, when the next generation HAVE to change theirs to accommodate two sets of family traditions.

It makes much more sense that once children come into the equation, older family members pass on the baton of Christmas hosting to the next generation. If they actually do this much earlier and accept Christmas as a moving tradition, then they won't end up lonely and isolated, because they won't bring more trouble than joy to the occasion.

I think YABU because not everyone has a decent extended family who all have a good time and love each other.
Lots of people have crappy families, with lots of backbiting and in-fighting. Lots of ILs don't get on.

Also, lots more people don't live near each other now. I can't do much in the way of extended family Christmas because only MIL lives near us - my family are 10,500 miles away.

It would be lovely if all families were like the Waltons, but they're really not.

In the early 70s my mother stopped speaking to her family for 12 years so we saw no grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins during that time. As children, we enjoyed Christmas and had no comparison then.

Also, why should old people come first? I VERY rarely say this, but children should be at the centre of Christmas Day, and no kid whatsoever thinks the nice bit is carting around to different houses when they could be playing with their toys. I wasn't talking about "old people coming first" - extended families have people of all ages, even children! And yes, it was fun as a child being welcomed to a Christmassy house by relatives, and being able to play daft games that needed quite a few people to make them fun. If everyone else's experience is that all relatives are toxic, maybe there's a much bigger problem than I imagined.

Nowadays on MN "family" means "me, DH, DC" and Christmas

My Christmases till DGP were lost and there was a lone GP just my parents and siblings.

DH was similar didn't really see family and often went away abroad so didn’t really do Christmas’s traditions. Right up till we marriage and suddenly there was s three-line whip and we had to be at theirs.

I put my foot down after pfb – as we were expected to travel for several hours get into a freezing cold house put heating on and do shopping so IL could come back to their house off holiday warm and everything ready. They wouldn’t even leave the heating on despite us having a very young baby.

We see them over the Christmas period but don’t travel that time of year and our children have Christmas in their house with their things.

I think it's just the case that some people have better relationships with their family than others, and perhaps people are gaining more confidence to say 'No, I don't want to spend time with people who don't treat me nicely.' Just because someone is related to you doesn't mean you have to enjoy spending time with them or want to seek them out if they aren't actually very nice!

For me, I love family Christmases... but I have a good relationship with my family and enjoy spending time with them and actively look forward to it. But my family is small - it's my mum and stepdad (and step-siblings), and then visits to my gran and dad. There are still about 13 of us on Christmas day!

Our Christmases are still family affairs, although we tend to do one year just us, one year everyone, as my mum and stepdad go away every second year over Christmas (and then host the next year). That works pretty well for everyone as it's the best of both worlds!

YANBU. We always used to go to my grandparents in Wales. And I loved every minute with them and cousins, aunts and uncles. We stayed for 2 wonderful weeks.

I don't think it's Christmas that has changed, it is our whole way of life.

Totally agree with this. Gone are the days of everyone living in the same town or small village - in my world anyway. Our nearest relatives are 90 minutes away. We're spread up and down the country. We don't trek around relatives at Christmas as it would be a logistical impossibility, resulting in most of hte time being spent on the M6. This is the way we were brought up too, I didn't grow up in the same city as any aunts, cousins or grandparents.

The whole "30 people around for Christmas" is a totally alien concept to me.

YAB a bit U

I’ve hosted extended family for 20 + years and I’ve had enough. I’ve offered to host a get together any other day in Dec but not the 25th, which will just be us. I’ve spent too many xmases in the kitchen while other people helped my D.C. open their presents.

Thanks for trying to make me feel guilty for saying no though.

I don't think people should have to spend Christmas day in and out of the car, visiting every relative in order to keep the peace. But I do think people should make sure that relatives with nowhere else to go are included in their Christmas day. You read so many threads on here where an OP is trying to justify not inviting her mother or her father in law over for Christmas, not because there's anything inherently wrong with them, but because they just can't be bothered, want to stay in their pjs all day and not bother cooking a proper meal, don't want somebody putting on the Queen's speech and having to make their son sleep on the sofa so granny can have his bed etc.

That really isn't in the spirit of Christmas, in my view.

And it's only Christmas FFS. There isn't a law that you have to be with family, or anyone, it's just a huge pile of unnecessary societal pressure.

When my DC are grown up I intend to put NO pressure on them at all. If they want to see me for Christmas, lovely. If they don't I'll do something else and not blackmail and fuss about it.

Speaking to others limited time off work and travel distances are also a problems for many families.

Lydiaatthebarre Agree with your posts.

"It makes much more sense that once children come into the equation, older family members pass on the baton of Christmas hosting to the next generation. If they actually do this much earlier and accept Christmas as a moving tradition, then they won't end up lonely and isolated, because they won't bring more trouble than joy to the occasion."

Yes, that's absolutely fine. I thought you meant that elderly relatives should be excluded in order that the children could just spend the day playing with their toys.
It does often make sense for grandparents or elderly aunts and uncles who are still active to do the travelling for Christmas day, rather than expecting a family that includes young children to pack up all the paraphanalia and do the travelling around. It is also a practical way of spending the day with both sets of grandparents, if that is what is desired.

I don't think it's Christmas that has changed, it is our whole way of life. Most families have two working parents and little time off over Christmas, not having a mum at home full time to do all the preparation means that there is hardly any time to just relax and enjoy your own family, so I fully understand why some elderly relatives get 'left out'.

I think that's a huge amount of it. I don't get the whole excitement of a day in home in your pjs. To me that sounds like something I could do any old week. As a way to spend Christmas day, I couldn't honestly imagine anything more boring. Either as an adult or as a child.

Santa presents and breakfast at home, lunch at grandparents' house with uncles (and more presents from them) followed by supper at great-grandparents' house where all the extended family congregate (and dole out more presents) was my childhood Christmas day and is now my son's too, just one generation along. It's so lovely and exciting to move from one place to the next, to see ever increasing groups of family. To sing and play, to exchange gifts, etc. It's a bit different for DS as he's the only child in the whole extended family, so everywhere we go, he's the star of the day and the person an awful lot of my family most want to see.

My parents and grandmother all live in roughly the same area, so it's only a few minutes in the car around noon and again at home time. (Maybe a bit more if the weather holds up for a big group dog walk by the river before dinner.) The timing all works out really well. DS gets up in the morning and has several hours to discover and play with what Santa brought. Then my parents and maybe one or both of my brothers come up for him to show off what he got. We may all go for a dog walk then, or if the weather is awful, most of us stay at the house while my dad/brother takes the dogs out quickly. Then we go to my parent's house where one of my brothers gives DS a present, which is either a Lego set or K'nex and we take turns helping him build/helping make dinner. That way DS is occupied and excited while he waits for dinner. From there on out, people dole out gifts throughout the day, so there is always the excitement of something new to play with and the anticipation of what is to come.