to think no one should be regularly working beyond their paid and contracted hours

[Lydiaatthebarre]

I was talking to a neighbour yesterday who said she was exhausted because she rarely gets home from work before 8.30 - 9.00 in the evening. Apparently her contracted hours are 9am - 6pm but 'nobody only works their paid hours, we all end up staying on for an extra hour or two".

AIBU to think that this increasing practise of expecting employees to give up hours of their time, free of charge, is totally wrong and a really backward step?

I'm not talking about a bit of give and take now and again, but a regular practise that seems to exist in many workplaces.

I also think it is an equality issue. Let’s face it if the expectation is that everyone has to work extra how does that balance with childcare commitments? Largely women are often the ones leaving on time to pick up from childcare - leaving the men able to power ahead for promotion etc

Teachers are not paid based on weekly hours. Classroom teachers are contracted to be available to their employer 1265 hours per year over 195 days. This is called directed time. Teacher contracts also include a clause that they must do whatever is required to fulfil their professional duties. So how long is a piece of string?

Directed time does not include lunchtime (but I don’t know any teachers who take a full lunch break).

Agree it affects women disproportionately

In my industry the hours are annoyingly late in the first place, later start until 6pm

This knocks out so many females when they have children it skews the make up of the employees

Lol! I’m a teacher - paid for 1265 hours per year, for the last 23 years I have worked for at least 2000+ hours per year. I do it because I love my job.

Some roles it’s simply unavoidable.

If you’re happy doing it, I don’t see an issue.

YANBU. I used to completely drain myself when I worked in Finance. 12 hour days, 5 days a week whilst getting paid for 40 hours. Luckily I'm a SAHM now, but DH still does those hours occasionally and it drives me up the wall.

I find employment threads on MN so depressing because of the number of mindless drones who reply, not seeming to be able to critique their industry’s working practises, who will presumably rise up the corporate ladder and mindlessly impose this on the next lot of new starters.

Yes, I understand that lots of places do it but you don’t have to agree with it. Private companies, or indeed the public sector are not charities, yet that’s what they become when you donate your time and skills for free.

I do what is essentially a small menial job, involving food preparation, all on my own, it pays 16 hrs a week, split over three days

Unfortunately the job actually takes a lot longer to complete, I have spent 3 years trying to streamline etc but it simply takes as long as it takes each shift, and it's not possible to simply go home after 5 1/2 hrs, theres a set amount of items to be made ( sometimes more) per shift, and basically you keep going till it's all done and then clean

I am often there for 8 hours or more per shift and come home exhausted

It's low pay, very tiring, no union lol, but finding a job where I am that fits in with childcare is nigh on impossible, and the prospect of enduring the crushing nastiness from the jobcentre again ( and the continuos sanctions I kept getting for not finding a non-existant job ) being untenable ( I got soo depressed I almost gave up when signing on, it was costing me almost as much as they were "giving" me to jobhunt fruitlessly )

I have to add that my employer is actually a kind person and does lots of little things to make the job a little better, the business realistically couldn't afford to pay more hours for the contribution I make

Sometimes life isn't so simple as saying no....especially when the alternative is so grim....

Thankfully.... the light at the end of the tunnel is my child is now getting quite a bit older and thus I will soon be able to rethink my position!

Before I had him, I was working full time, and in several different careers, the expectation of working extra hours for free has been ingrained in the UK for a long long time, those who refuse don't usually get the promotion/payrise etc

Terrible practice but....
Unfortunate,
Sometimes the larger companies take the biscuit somewhat I feel

I find employment threads on MN so depressing because of the number of mindless drones who reply, not seeming to be able to critique their industry’s working practises, who will presumably rise up the corporate ladder and mindlessly impose this on the next lot of new starters

I absolutely loved the job. It was my pleasure to stay longer. I was young, had no responsibilities and was in the role of my dreams.

But then it was absolutely impossible to impose a finish time on various employees due to the nature of the role.

I work for a charity that is a cultural landmark. What funding there is (and there's less of it every year) comes with incredibly high expectations for how those funds will be used to, for example: engage those in the fringes of the communities, promote multiple levels of diversity, protect the local cultural heritage and inspire creativity. So there's always "too much work" and "not enough money." And many, many of the highest ranking members of staff, who still earn well below industry standard, work 50-60 hours a week in a normal week and a lot more than that in an exceptional one. There's simply not enough money to pay for enough staff to get the work done in the 9-5.

We do have quite a bit of flexibility in the quieter times and the low season, though. And the truth is that most of us love the organisation and are passionate about the importance of what we provide for the community. If we didn't work "unpaid overtime" we wouldn't exist. And while I suppose nobody needs theatres and art galleries and historic monuments, we'd certainly be the poorer for lack of them.

The number of times I have heard from others that I will never get a rise will be the first to be chucked, never get a promotion is ridiculous.
Every single job I have ever had I had have raises and promotions. The only overtime I have ever done has been when it has been needed.

Even had jobs where the predecessor had worked insane hours and it was expected that I also do this. Nope. Flexible working doesn't in my world include the company taking the fucking piss and regularly expecting people to work beyond their hours. You either pay or time off in lieu.

This is why I left banking and went into academia

Sorry but all of these people saying if you earn more and are in a professional role then you should just expect to work longer - why?!?! You are usually paid more due to the complexity / responsibility / accountability.

It shouldn’t be different for higher and lower earners.

No one should have to regularly work beyond their contracted time.

I work for a LA don’t get a lunch break which I also don’t think is correct as we have an UNPAID 30mins in our contract .

do Danish and German lawyers doctors nurses etc do lots of free overtime or is it only the UK and USA?

Don't become a NHS midwife, nurse or doctor then. But when you need one of them, remember they regularly work unpaid overtime to ensure their patients are cared for

Notmorewashing: Sorry but all of these people saying if you earn more and are in a professional role then you should just expect to work longer - why?!?! You are usually paid more due to the complexity / responsibility / accountability. It shouldn’t be different for higher and lower earners. No one should have to regularly work beyond their contracted time.

Professionals are paid to achieve results for the company or for a client. They are paid to get the job done. This means meeting deadlines and that includes managing and arranging cover for and often covering for their junior staff who wish to work set hours or go off sick or have childcare issues, the lot really. It could also mean their skills are so specialised or rare that no one else can cover for them e.g. flying out to a client to pitch for work and then scoping out, resourcing and doing the work to deadlines.

People are more willing to stay late in professional roles because of job satisfaction. I am a lower paid professional and stay for pride in my work and because I am enjoying myself or have something really interesting going on. I definately wouldn't feel the same way if I was cleaning toilets or sitting at a checkout.

I have generally done more than my contracted hours in most jobs, mostly because I want to finish things off or do a good job. However, that's because I've been lucky enough to do jobs I've enjoyed or at least found worthwhile, even if the process of getting there wasn't enjoyable. I certainly wouldn't be working regular unpaid overtime in a job I did just to pay bills, unless I thought I'd lose it if I didn't (and then I'd look for a new one).

The only job I absolutely detested was a 10am to 6pm one where there was little work to do but terrible presenteeism. You simply weren't allowed to walk out of there on time without people tutting, which was bizarre as they didn't have enough work for the staff!

One of the reasons teaching is so problematic (I'm a teacher now) is that your job is never really 'done'. You can always improve a lesson, read more about something, or think of a better way to do something, even if your workload is even doable in the time in the first place, which certainly isn't a given in most schools. So that combines really badly with increased expectations, increased numbers of students and also, in my experience, a lot of staff who haven't done other jobs so don't have anything to compare it with plus management who have no work-life balance themselves.

Anyway, I only posted to say that I think the unions missed a trick at some point in the 80s or 90s. The workplace was changing, job roles were fragmenting, new ones were being invented and they didn't manage to change and become relevant. I picked up a UNISON leaflet once in the NHS and the pitch was something like 'join us and you can do your GCSEs!' I'm post graduate qualified and I thought 'Eh? That's not very appealing'. The teaching unions don't appeal to me very much either (I'm not sufficiently militant and I like my school, which treats its staff well), although I do belong to one.

I have taught hundreds of 16-18 year olds over the last 7 years and it's rare that any of them even know what a union is. Yet, the work culture is not something that can be solved at an individual level.

My fiancé is supposed to do 9.45 hours 4 days a week. That never happens because of how many jobs he has. But he is on good money and likes the extra it brings in.

Been going on for years. I had a job where i worked until the computer system shut down for backing up. 8 pm. I then sent what I was working on to my home system. Drove home, had a quick something to eat and started work again, sometimes to 1 am. My hours were 9 - 5 with 30 min break. No extra money, time off in lieu or even a thank you. Put up with it for 4 years then left.

@Lydiaatthebarre

I agree. They are conditioned that this is normal and viewing the "flouncing" staff as professionally lower than them enables employers to abuse the "contract"

Divide and conquer. Classic tactic

I hate this! My workplace don't even try and hide the fact that they expect us to put in more hours than we are contracted for. All cases in our name are 'our responsibility' and so if we need to stay to get something done then that's just the way it is. It's never about the fact that management give too much work to individuals so that it's physically impossible to get everything done within the working day, it's always implied that it's some form of failing on your part if you're having to stay behind.

I remember having a staff meeting and a manager saying she was disgusted because when she got in the office at 7am there wasn't a single person there!!

Like someone mentioned above, if I turn my computer off at 5 and go home, no one dies!! But people, clients in particular, are extremely impatient in my job (legal sector).

"I remember having a staff meeting and a manager saying she was disgusted because when she got in the office at 7am there wasn't a single person there!! "

That's one of the problems with workaholics who have no life outside of work. They try and impose that lifestyle on their employees and create terrible environments to work in - making people feel guilty if they're too ill to come to work, or if they just want to go home at their contracted hour or need an hour off to go to the dentist and so on.

Work/life balance is really important for your mental health and by far the best managers to work for are those who have a meaningful life outside of the workplace.

I agree about the useless meetings points too.

Years ago I worked in a role where I avoided meetings as far as possible. I worked about 8.45 to 5.45 in that role to fit in with train times and generally always took my lunch break.

Eventually I moved sideways. The lady who took over from me spent far more time in meetings and worked until 8pm every night.