to think no one should be regularly working beyond their paid and contracted hours

[Lydiaatthebarre]

I was talking to a neighbour yesterday who said she was exhausted because she rarely gets home from work before 8.30 - 9.00 in the evening. Apparently her contracted hours are 9am - 6pm but 'nobody only works their paid hours, we all end up staying on for an extra hour or two".

AIBU to think that this increasing practise of expecting employees to give up hours of their time, free of charge, is totally wrong and a really backward step?

I'm not talking about a bit of give and take now and again, but a regular practise that seems to exist in many workplaces.

If you earn a large salary (6 figures) and you only work contracted hours, you won’t be long finding yourself out of a job. Long hours culture goes hand in hand with large salaries so there’s a trade off. It also goes some way to explaining why women (ie mothers) tend to be in low paying roles while men are in higher paid ones because women generally have to do the bulk of childcare so tend to need flexibility. Less so for men.

You'll be lucky to get 6 figures in most jobs though. And the public sector is really what gets my back up. Without these jobs you might as well forget society. Yet they are working. Unpaid

The bulk of childcare still falls to women to either provide or manage, so women are disproportionately impacted by having set times they have to leave by. There are of course single parent fathers, fathers who have a primary caring role and those who equally share the task but are not yet the norm.

It’s impossible to say no when someone phones you in crisis at 4.59 on a Thursday

I'd love to know where you work! Most social workers here simply ring 101 and pass all their shite onto the police whilst swanning off home. particularly if it's work they've known about for a week then calling it in as an urgent fear for welfare

zebra I do remember those last thing Friday afternoon calls, when we all looked at each other and wondered if we could get away with pretending to be the cleaner. We did always pick it though, even if we swore under our breath.

I have a contract which says ‘hours as required’, but I’m paid for 37.5 per week.... I’ve usually done that each week before the end of Thursday.
There are four of us as senior managers, and one of us always has to be on site. As I’m the only one without kids, I inevitably end up being the one covering holidays, after 5.30, Friday afternoons. I’m paid exactly the same as them.
I recognise that this is a problem with our manager, but it does grate that there’s no additional remuneration for the shitty hours.
For the first time in 3 years, I’m taking 2 weeks off together, to go see my sister in Canada. I’ve given 8 months notice of this, and it’s already a problem with getting the cover. So, sometimes childless women get the pressure put on them to work the additional hours too!

@Sparklyfee what everybody else deams a professional role. Lawyer, doctor, banker, consultant, acountant, doctor and the like. You know, a role that is also a profession. Most such work pays well but there is an unwritten expectation that employees will stay beyond contracted hours when they have work to do because that is a professional thing to do. If you are doing one of these types of jobs and then you will probably be contracted 9 to 5 but your workload will likely exceed that if you are well paid for the role. The more you get paid the more work you are expected to do. That's why there are lawyers out there on 30k a year and lawyers on 300k a year. The 30k a year lawyer will flounce out of the office at 5 pm because they can. The 300k a year lawyer may leave at five (or even before) but will usual have to much work. They will often stay very late, sometimes they will work all night or travel for work. They aren't doing this for free. Their salary reflects this extra work and dedication.

"The 30k a year lawyer will flounce out of the office at 5 pm because they can."

Or maybe just walk out of the office because her working day is over.

Depends on the job. I'd rather do an extra couple of hours than try to squash it in to a normal day and get snappy in the process and give myself a headache."

But surely that's a sign that you're being given more work to do than you're actually being paid for?

I'm constantly being mithered 24/7 and I dont get paid for it. I'm almost blackmailed into it as if your not working to get blood out of a stone you get the chop. Ive seen it happen. Wish I was in a position to leave but I'm just not. I finish at 2 pm I was still getting calls at 1am when I'm due up at 5 am to start all over again.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/04/young-people-capitalism-mcstrike-unions

I saw this on the way to work this morning - it was heartening to see so many young people involved (Union members are usually personified as middle aged public sector workers).

I thought this quote put it very well:
I knew workers had never won better living standards and better conditions and power by relying on the generosity of any government or these companies

I think in professional roles it is definitely the norm. I work for the NHS and DH private sector both doing the same job. We both regularly work extra hours. We both have to get our job done so it takes as long as it takes.

I am only contracted to 30 hours a week, probably work 35+ but I don't have the time to work 37.5 plus a load extra. I reckon I am more productive than most of those in my office who work full time as I just crack on with it due to my limited time.

It's weird how you end up conditioned though as I (inwardly) look down on those who swan off after their 7.5 hours or take lunch breaks everyday. I don't actually think it is right but after 15 years in the NHS it's just normal. I ensure y assistants are able to take lunch every day and actively encourage it, most of them may have a 10 min walk to grab a sandwich but that's it. We have way more work than we should to do but we also get paid a decent wage to do it. Anything under £30k I would say I would fully expect only their contracted hours. Above that then generally not.

A lot of employers offer agile, flexible or remote working as a trade off for being available and flexible to handle calls or emails outside of office hours or for travelling on business.

I would rather the flexibility to plan where I will work on a particular day even if it means working beyond my contracted hours than be a 9-5 office clock watcher. I am in any case in one of those professional jobs which remunerate well for the flexibility on my part.

I'm actually finding some of the language on this thread interesting - staff going home after their contracted hours perceived as 'flouncing off' or 'swanning off'.
They're not. They're leaving the workplace after having worked their contracted hours.
Expecting staff to muck in now and again and stay on late is one thing. But viewing it as the norm is completely different.

blueshoes - I've always wondered how true flexibility works and what it really means.

From the employees perspective its freedom to work from home, leave when they need to etc and be trusted to get the job done, wherever they do it from and in whatever hours.

From the employers perspective however it can mean the above provided you're still in the office (or at clients) when they need you to be.

The reality of this is you pay for full childcare whether or not you end up needing it. Fine for well paid professional roles but less workable for lower paid roles.

It's not all professional jobs or companies. I work in a professional job, and my boss has been vocal about people staying late - why are they staying late? Is their workload too heavy or are they wasting time in the day? Basically, thinks everyone should be able to get their work done and leave on time, and doesn't look down on anyone who can manage this. If anyone was genuinely working hard all day and couldn't manage, they would look at workload redistribution.

the billable hours targets won’t change any time soon

it will and it already is. I do all my work on a fixed fee basis. It depends on the type of work, and you win some you lose some, but it gets rid of the time recording and the billable hours targets which actually exceed your contracted hours!

Working outside contacted hours would be regarded in most German firms as something having gone wrong

Not apparently, at Airbus. I have a friend who works there and for years he has worked very long hours. Admittedly he doesn't get in until 10am but he's often not home until 8 at the earliest and sometimes it's 10pm. He says it's because of conference calls with the US.

Either that, or he's trying to avoid having to look after the kids in the week :)

Part of me does question some of the full time workers at my place, they seem to spend a lot of time chatting and flitting around in the office then are sending out emails etc at 11pm and weekends, if they were more productive during the day maybe it would be better. They are employed to do the same job as me which I can do in 4.5 days.

I saw a feature recently where companies are starting to shorten the working week and apparently people are way more productive in 4 days than they are in 5.

This is how work is for most of us - it's not a choice.

Working outside contacted hours would be regarded in most German firms as something having gone wrong

Not true at all, it's the same nuance as anywhere some companies/industries it's kind of expected and some not.

Seems the norm these days. I’ve worked at a lot of places like that. But then I’ve also worked for places that kick you out the door at home time. At the min I work somewhere where the boss would like extra time, but my DS2 is only 4 and I refuse to pay for any extra childcare

God, this thread makes for depressing reading. So many people have internalised the idea that long hours are how it must be if you are to thrive in a ‘professional’ job.

I hope everyone who’s said this, or words to that effect, realises that - collectively - you are the barrier to us ever achieving workplace parity between men and women. As so many women are the ‘default’ parent responsible for the bulk of childcare, as long as overlong working days remain the norm in some workplaces and industries, gender equality or anything approaching it will never be achieved.

I’m contracted for 35 hours but because of sickness and holiday cover and I can do upto around 60 hours a week!! My other half is the same. Although he isn’t contracted because he works through an agency he can sometimes work up to around 54 hours in a week as well!! Both of which could potentially become quite dangerous because I deal with giving medication to the elderly through my job as a care and support worker and he drives a 26 tonne Truck, I doubt either of us would ever change our jobs though!!

Teachers teach 25 hrs per week (with 2.5 hrs for planning). They are paid for 35 hrs - i.e. 10 extra hrs for prep etc at home. There are also contractual hrs. Most do way more than that. Sadly, many work weekends.