to think no one should be regularly working beyond their paid and contracted hours

[Lydiaatthebarre]

I was talking to a neighbour yesterday who said she was exhausted because she rarely gets home from work before 8.30 - 9.00 in the evening. Apparently her contracted hours are 9am - 6pm but 'nobody only works their paid hours, we all end up staying on for an extra hour or two".

AIBU to think that this increasing practise of expecting employees to give up hours of their time, free of charge, is totally wrong and a really backward step?

I'm not talking about a bit of give and take now and again, but a regular practise that seems to exist in many workplaces.

It's a crappy situation isn't it? I would so love to clock out at 5.30 but it rarely happens because of the amount of stuff to do and prepping for the next day.
My colleague is retiring soon and the big boss is already saying we might not replace him which is ridiculous! I'm wanting to not work over time but know my day tomorrow will be worse if I don't!

I refuse to do overtime. My desk and emails could be overflowing with work, and I'm still logging out at my end time.

Doing overtime "disguises" the fact that you need more people, and lets employers take the piss imo.

My DH quit a job last year because he was paid for 39 hours and every single week was doing 50-60. He was leaving the house before our (early riser) kids woke up and coming home at 9-10pm.

I absolutely would not have done it in his position. I don't mind the odd hour here and there but that took the piss. Unfortunately it's not the only job he's had where it's been like that and it was the same for most of the staff, not just DH. He had a driving job where working hours are stricter but they still didn't care. For an 8 hour shift they would send him somewhere 5 hours away with 4 different cities to collect/deliver to. It doesn't add up does it?

I had a supermarket management job and it was expected from all managers too. And we weren't paid well to compensate either. I was only on £18k. Once it got to 5.30 I was out of the door though, I had young children to get from nursery. The higher managers used to get shitty with me all the time but what could I do 🤷🏼‍♀️

If people are regularly staying late at work then the company owners are simply not employing enough staff. They’re relying on people earning less than them to work for free to line their pockets.

It’s a national disgrace actually, and there should never be a situation where someone has to work regular extra hours for free in order to gain promotion. The practise disproportionately affects women who often have more caring responsibilities so can’t work extra hours, or they are stuck at home with the caring responsibilities while their partner works for free for someone else.

This used to get me when I worked in hospitality. Shift was say 3 - 11 but was expected to stay til all cleaning/ prep for next day was done. Last train was at 11.45 and I regularly missed it and had to fork out for a taxi home. So not only was I working an extra hour for free, I then had to pay an hours wage to get home.

satsumereater I bet their productivity is higher than ours despite the shorter working hours.

Due to, not despite.

I'm a manager and I am very sure that working longer hours just makes people work slower/worse. I have to retrain new people to work their bloody hours, not to hang around until 7pm tinking away at whatever fancy new IT toy they're working with.

Went to Japan and read a lot on the culture there - they're absolutely certain that longer hours are bad for work done, and are slooooowly trying to turn that ship around but it'll take a couple of generations by the look of things.

Totally standard for me

@Caroelle so let the system collapse! Then it will have to be addressed properly. Over the years our services have been cut and cut and cut a bit more.

Yet it is the employees that are enabling this to happen by making the system work. By working for free!

Why would the government employ staff to cover shortfalls when existing staff take a pay cut to do more work?

In my professional the expectation is ‘whatever it takes to get the job done’. I have consistently worked additional hours and weekends for many years. It was fully explained to me at interview thataroubd the clock working would sometimes be required. I accepted that as pat of the role and am paid generously for it. I also receive 2 bonuses a year which reflects the hard work I have put in. I also have a fair bit of flexibility so there is some give and take.

If I were working a job with very low pay and little prospects for development I think my attitude to working hours would differ massively.

This is why I'm glad I'm paid hourly. I clock in when I arrive and if I have to stay late I get paid for it! I think a lot of salaried jobs massively take the piss in terms of expectations/working hours.

Next week I'm working an extra day (6 days instead of 5) due to staff shortages - I get paid time and a half for the entire day, there's no way in hell I'd be agreeing to do it otherwise!

I used to stay late due to line manager pressure. But now I get in at the time I am meant to and leave in time too. Head down and getting on with stuff at work so feel no guilt at leaving on time. No longer look at emails on way in or way home either. I don’t work on Fridays. I no longer look at work emails then either. I feel liberated. Work is an exchange of your labour for pay. All the free time you are devoting to work, which includes thinking about it in the early hours etc, diminishes your hourly pay rate. Work do not own you body and soul. They rent you for a set number of hours. Most jobs are not life and death. Competitive presentism and busyness is a thing, its like a virus. It spreads out from one person and before you know it you have all caught it.

I work in a bog standard office. There are people who are sending emails at 2am. No need for it. I feel sorry for them, they think they are irreplaceable but the reality is they would be kicked out in an instance if they had to reduce numbers. A lot of them have no personal lives either and can’t see the wood for the trees. Some like the martyrdom. They also like to tell everybody they are busy, busy, busy. And like moaning that other people are slackers.

I take a pragmatic view of work these days. I don’t want promotion or any more responsibility, time is the most preciuos commodity and I refuse to give that up without recompense. We are working longer due to the pensions situation, do you really want years and years of just being a slave to work.

If you work in the NHS etc, I can understand it although it is not right. But most jobs are not emergency services so start leaving on time. Even if your job is under threat, I think I would rather lose my job than work stupid hours. Reclaim your lives.

Its fairly standard in my profession, however I am quite luck now as if I do stay late I can decide to just have a day on the sofa as long as I keep tabs on emails etc.

Most businesses now that can, are looking at more flexibility, the culture is changing but it will take a few years to proper filter through.

I read an interesting book recently suggesting that in Denmark, they don't have this late hours culture

I moved to Denmark 11 years ago. Not only is there less of this culture, but the thing that struck me is that it's actively frowned upon for people to work so much that they neglect their family time, which is held as more important. This applies to men & women.

At the company I work for, you can get your hours adjusted to suit your family life fairly easily. If you don't want to reduce hours you can put a couple in after the kids are in bed. There's a lot of working from home flexibility. There's usually a few kids in here over the holidays as well, and a room with a TV etc. for them.

The culture simply dictates that family life is important.

Although balance this with the fact that SAHPs are rare, after the generous year of paid maternity/paternity most return to work.

I genuinely could not be fully productive after 5pm. Even by 4pm I'm slowing down. But I always get my work done, meet my deadlines and have never had any complaints about the overall quality of my work.

I think this drift towards longer working hours has been so detrimental to our quality of life. People are stressed, family life suffers, there's no time for outside interests, or for volunteering in the community or all the things that give your life depth and meaning. Sitting for long hours in front of a computer to impress the boss, or because the boss is too mean to pay for an extra staff member is such an impoverished way to live.

I am glad that there now seems to be a bit of a backlash against this, with more people realising how exploitative and even counter productive it is.

For anyone interested, this is the book I mentioned about Denmark. Very interesting, and a light read, not an acadmic study
www.amazon.co.uk/Year-Living-Danishly-Uncovering-Happiest/dp/1785780239/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&keywords=helen+russell+year+living+danishly&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1538572093&sr=1-1

I just won't do it, would rather have a life than just work all the time for free.

I was thinking about this a bit more - I had my annual appraisal last week and my boss asked me if the working arrangements were working for me given that work-life balance was important to me.

It was good of him to ask the question.

But actually, shouldn't it be standard that everyone benefits from a good work-life balance? The organisation I work for doesn't do anything that would stop the world turning if we all clocked off at 5.30 on the dot. Actually we nearly all do clock off on time.

My work has complete flexible working and I’m very thankful for it.

We are contracted 37.5hours a week but clock in when we want and clock out again when we want. As long as we take 30 mins for lunch there is no problems.

It means that if it’s a particularly busy week I will happily exceed 7.5 hrs and the time is ‘banked’ on our flexi system, which means I can take a day off, or half day, longer lunch etc.

The hours really add up and I’ve got about 3 days stored up at the moment.

I’m not paid fantastically well although I’m comfortable, but I think this flexibility and the fact that you never have to worry about working for free makes up for that.

Work expands to fill the hours available.

I once took over the manager role at one of our branches. Prior to me arriving they had been doing a lot of overtime (and starting to rely on the extra money as it was paid) The powers that be wanted to cut overtime, so I held a meeting and said, right, no more overtime, many grumbles followed. Surprisingly enough within a month there was no backlogged work load and everyone was out the door at 5. It did backfire on me though as when we needed overtime for a specific project no one wanted to do it as they'd all got used to having a life.

Also working this way as donnadarko said you know if you need more staff.

Was that Living Danishly by Helen Russell? It's very interesting - and I bet their productivity is higher than ours despite the shorter working hours.

Productivity is always higher (up to a point) with shorter working hours. After a ceirtain amount of time no extra work gets done, it all gets eaten up by faffing and dilly dallying pretending to be work. When you know you only have 4 or 5 hours at work you make sure to make the most of it by working. Even 8 hours is too many, it’s long enough that you feel like you can stretch out a bit on the job and not really put in a concentrated effort.

I read an interesting book recently suggesting that in Denmark, they don't have this late hours culture

I live in denmark and this is true. No one wants to be seen as charming or great banter, but competant. If you stay longer its because youre not good at your job.

Also I live 15km from where Helen Russel did and I will say that our experiences of Demmark are very different to mine its a work of fiction.

@Lydiaatthebarre this isn't a new thing though. It has certainly been the case for the last 20 plus years.

I don't work over my hours. In fact I work part-time, and a lot WFH. My US colleagues/boss comment on this ALL the time, however I have sales targets and have yet to miss one. I've not had a sick day in 6 years. That's what happens I reckon when you have good work life balance and control over your own schedule.
My colleagues on the other hand send emails at 2am or 5am, seem continually stressed out, have a culture of presenteeism in their offices, and boast about their 'therapists' and how lucky they are that the company medical plan covers their therapy. To us Europeans outside of the USA it seems clear that they probably would all need therapy if they weren't on the clock all the time. They definitely aren't more productive.

wouldn't need therapy!

I think it’s awful practice and I’m amazed so many people seem to think that not only is it ok, you’re a dummy for not thinking it’s ok!

I am in a professional job earning £40k plus and I don’t work more than my contracted hours. If I work an hour more one week, I work an hour less the next week. I more than get my job done.

I had a manager once who not only frowned upon this and made it well known, but was also known to book a day off and then make an ostentatious fuss of coming in to the office to catch up on work. Bloody ridiculous.

We have a flexitime system. I find it’s a common problem when I’m coaching and mentoring other colleagues, some people seem to think that they’ll get brownie points for not claiming extra hours as flexi, and look down on people who do. I just say that no one gets hurt falling on your sword except you. That, and there’s the fact that if you’re having to work 10 extra hours every week to get your job done, either you’re struggling with your job or you have two much work. Those who have too much work tend to be vocal about not claiming flexi, but those who are doing extra to cover up that they’re struggling want it to be a secret, when in fact they almost always have a training need.