To think conspiracy theorists are an infuriating mix of arrogance, stupidity and lazy thinking

[EmperorTomatoRetchup]

Having thought I'll leave it, I'll leave it, I found myself arguing with a conspiracy theorist.

Christ alight these people are utterly lacking in any sort of critical thought. This tool was trotting out one of the most popular of the conspiracy theories - 911 as an inside job, Madelline McCann was murdered by her parents, moon landings were faked, Diana was bumped off by Mi5 etc. and they seemed to be impervious to any of the logical flaws in their argument, that researching a matter didn't mean watching YouTube videos made by fellow conspiricists spouting unsourced, unreferenced nonsense and claiming that non adherents were 'sheeple' buying 'the official line'.

To take the example jokingly referenced on another thread, the Paul McCartney is dead conspiracy theory, how many people coroners, doctors ambulance staff, Paul's family and friends, would have had to be bought off in order to allow him to be replaced by a lookalike who could be trained to speak, act, play musical instruments left handed and pass for one of the world's most famous men in the full glare of the media . In 50 years not a single person involved in this dastardly plan, not a single one of this vast army of people cooped into it has blown the whistle despite their being unparalleled financial rewards for doing so.

No musicologists have detected a change in composition or playing or singing style. No one asking what happened to the bloke who became fake Paul', might their family not be curious as to why their son/brother disappeared off the face of the earth in the late 60s.After going to such extraordinary lengths the Beatles so desperate to cover up this audacious act, left a series of clues in their songs as a signal to their fans.

AIBU to think that this combination of scepticism, lack of critical thought, logic, probability twinned with overwhelming arrogance is infuriating and wonder how I should deal with these fuckers in future? Especially when any attempts to point out the flaws in their arguments are taken as signs you are one of the sheeple or a Co conspirator.

The prolonged silence of the Kelly family speaks volumes about his death.

But when you say that, do you mean that:

A. Because they haven't protested the official conclusions, they clearly accept the findings as true and have no disagreement with the government;

B. Because there obviously was an official lie and resulting cover-up, they've clearly been paid off and/or threatened that they'll meet the same fate if they speak up?

I remember reading some crazy stuff on the internet. Theories she had died three days previous to being reporting missing and her parents had scalped her and put her hair on her sister to pass her off as Madeleine. People who post that sort of thing must be unwell.

I wonder if they ever pause and think 'what if I'm wrong and I've spent the last decade accusing grieving parents of the most horrific things imaginable?' The lack of self awareness and self reflection worries me.

In respect of Hillsborough, there were dangerous grounds at the time and it didn't come as a surprise to anyone that there were risks. It didn't happen on purpose but there was recklessness. A lot of that was down to the prevailing cultural influences at the time. Football fans being viewed as scum was part of the reason it happened, so it's not a shock that it also featured in the initial and official analysis.

The question is, did those in authority know the truth about what happened? Did they lie to cover up the truth? Did they act together in a deliberate and systematic manner to hide the truth from the British people? Did they destroy evidence? Did they manipulate the press? Did they know what they were doing and act together to do it?

In my mind, there absolutely was a conspiracy by the police and government to hide the facts and they did act in an illegal and harmful way. We can say now that it isn't a conspiracy theory, but at the time the family members who were trying to get the truth out were dismissed as conspiracy theorists and that there absolutely was no high-level conspiracy to deceive the public.

You can compare Hillsborough to the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, where the police pretty much immediately admitted that they had cocked up and that he was totally innocent There was no effort to lie or deceive, no destruction of evidence, no conspiracy.

Also, I mean no offense to anyone. I am naturally skeptical of those in authority, but I don't think I'm a crazy, weed-smoking crack pot.

The problem is there really is no absolute truth. Just probabilities and possibilities.

If you think about it, it is rather odd that a high-ranking royal used to regularly holiday in Ireland during the Troubles. There was also a 15-year-old boy killed by the explosion. Who was that boy? Mountbatten's "lover"?

Wow. It’s offensive to talk about a murder victim like that. He went to Ireland to stay with his wife’s family who had a property in the area and had been spending summers there without incident for years.

There was a large party including his grandchildren and their friends. One of his grandchildren (14) was killed as was one of his friends. It seems a bit daft to suggest it was some sort of clandestine homosexual relationship when Mountbatten had bought his entire extended family on the fishing trip. Why would he do that if it was a trip with an underage lover? It was just a friend of his grandchildren.

For Hillsborough I think in some ways the more important question is the recklessness. It wasn't a planned event, but there had to be enough people and institutions not giving enough of a shit about safety for it to happen. People knew the ground was a death trap. My dad went to football in the 80s and he did. The cover up afterwards has, quite rightly, received a great deal of attention. I'm glad of that. I also think the cultural and institutional landscape that allowed an event like this to happen is a huge part of the picture.

Some of your examples have absolutely no solid, concrete proof either way of what happened. MM for instance...you don't know for certain that she wasn't killed by her parents. Just because you personally wouldn't be able to hide a body doesn't mean others couldn't - many people have done! Personally I would never have left my kids alone in an unfamiliar country whilst I swanned off for a drink, but clearly others don't think twice about it!

I've watched so many different things on 9/11 that I just don't buy the story line. Do I think it was concocted by the US government? I wouldn't put it past them, let's face it they are brilliant at hiding things, moulding situations to meet their needs etc. I think it was an odd coincidence that it happened at a time they wanted to go to war but didn't get the backing. 9/11 had a significant impact on me & my mates for several reasons, including personal loss & also being the reason our dads were sent to war. I will happily question things because no solid evidence has been put forward that cannot be disputed.

The earth being flat thing is just silly. There is concrete proof of this. So anybody believing that simply can't or won't accept facts.
I think for anybody to blatantly claim that their views are fact without being able to provide proof is indeed arrogant, stupid & lazy. Many who claim not to be conspiracy theorists also fall into that category

Paul Maxwell wasn't a friend of the Mountbattens or their friends, he was a local lad hired to help on the boat.

Mountbatten has been linked to Kincora boy's home. Odd that the inquiry into what happened at Kincora never really got anywhere. Personally, I think what happened there stinks and there have been many suggestions of a government cover up which I find credible. Same as what happened at Elm Guest House.

I don't know if Paul was Mountbatten's lover or not. I just find his presence there odd.

Re: Hillsborough, wasn't David Duckenfield charged with man slaughter by gross negligence? The trial is ongoing. It seems it was more than just the conditions at fault.

I thought David Duckenfield's charges got overturned?? Google is my friend...

Scrap that, a judge overturned the order banning him from being tried. He is being done for manslaughter

I wonder if they ever pause and think 'what if I'm wrong and I've spent the last decade accusing grieving parents of the most horrific things imaginable?' This could also apply to parents in the family courts, who have had children wrongly removed and not believed by the general public.

Sausage, I mean neither A nor B. Working at such a senior level of the service requires an understanding that it's not an ordinary job and when things go belly up they're not up for discussion. I would say Dr Kelly died in the service of his country and do not believe it was an accident.

@Hanyu, I always have my suspicions about Hewitt and Harry.

In this photo I think he looks a lot like Charles. I think the Hewitt theory has been well looked into and the timeline is wrong. I'm not convinced, but wouldn't be shocked either way.

Now Ronan Farrow and Frank Sinatra I find spooky. Those eyes!

I must admit I've always been astonished that a member of the royal family thought it was sensible to go on holiday not just in Ireland but near enough in the border country at the height of the Troubles. However, people are stupid.

I think it was an odd coincidence that it happened at a time they wanted to go to war but didn't get the backing.

Why?

It's definitely possible to discern the desire to invade Iraq long before 9/11, there were always voices in the US military and politics who felt it should've happened in 1991. But if it was what the administration wanted and were determined to do, why didn't they arrange some Iraqis instead of Saudis? It's one thing making the best of what you have, and I reckon they might well have tried to make a case for war using whatever events happened (you can always come up with a human rights argument when it's a brutal dictator, too). Quite another to literally create something with one big fuckoff flaw.

Its the red hair with Harry and Hewitt. However, lots of redheads in the Spencer family, there's a photo of one of the sisters -Sarah?- in her 20s and the likeness to Harry is unmistakable.

Harry looks nothing like Hewitt, he’s clearly a spit of Charles, especially now he’s getting older.

On the other hand Diana and Zac Goldsmith look alarmingly alike.

It's hard to know about Harry's true parentage. I definitely don't think that him & William look anything alike though.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that wrt to the McCanns, there's no more evidence for the abduction theory than any other, and thus no reason to accept it. Much beyond that though and it does get into conspiracy theory-ville. And there needs to be a bit more than 'there's no evidence this didn't happen' in order for something to be advanced as remotely credible or relevant. I mean, I've no proof that Donald Trump wasn't involved, but I'm not suggesting that makes it reasonable to raise the possibility that he might have been.

And after all, if her parents weren't responsible (and they've been pretty idiotic keeping it in the public eye if they were) then yes, it's saying unimaginably awful things about people who, however irresponsible they were, have lost a child. Whereas if they did actually do it but you've chosen not to air your theory about how they got away with it, you're not actually causing any harm to or defaming anyone with that decision.

MM case there certainly was a motive and the parents had a direct contact to people in high places which helps with the cover up.

What direct contact, how would this have helped with a cover up and what is this certain motive?

I used to work with a guy who was full of conspiracy theories and it was interesting to listen to what he actually believed and what evidence he had to believe it.
NASA isn't real, earth is flat, holocaust didn't happen
... but my favourite was....
Michelle Obama is actually a man who was originally called Michael. He was so serious about it.
Some of his arguments for this were
There is no photos of her on the internet pregnant with any of her children andBurak Obama accidentally called her Michael once. There was other but I can't remember now.
I love meeting people like this especially at work. It makes the shift go faster and I learn something new (maybe not true but new)
Is also believe that segregation should still be a thing. Black and white separated and all different religion separated. This I didn't agree with of course, but everyone had an opinion, I don't have to agree with.

I really think Harry favors Prince Phillip. I've seen side by side photos of them at the same age and it's very obvious.

The best conspiracy theory i ever heard was that all US presidents are in fact aliens. The only reason? Because if they were just humans they wouldn't work so hard to hide the fact that the US was constantly being visited by aliens & UFOs...