To encourage Ocado shoppers to read this

[Estellesylvia]

If you are an Ocado customer, you should be aware that they consider defining ‘woman’ as an adult human female to be hate speech and not ‘in line with their values’.

They threatened to pull advertising from Primesite unless Primesite took down a billboard with the OED definition of woman on it.

They have received hundreds of complaints from women since, but have refused to apologise.

Just in case you might want to consider not giving your money to a company who consider the word woman to not be in line with their values.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3376466-ocado-boycott-after-support-of-primesight-action

And if you do decide to boycott, tell them why.

@ShovingLeopard

I have spent years researching this (pre brand new baby). I've been an active feminist campaigner and activist since my early teens (I'm now 34 with baby number one).

I have read and researched the arguments for an against at the gender recognition act. I do not think this is a black and white issue at all. I just don't agree with many who want to exclude transwomen. I'm not compelled by the argument against transinclusion.

I'd also say that strawmen and slippery slope arguments have been used far more by OP and those supporting her. Though I agree I'm not conveying my views as clearly as I'd like because I am exhausted.

There's a great recent factcheck by the BBC about transwomen in prisons which shows that digging behind some of the stats and arguments used shows a more complex issue than is often presented.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

Years ago, I was more often compelled by the prevailing view on MN. But through further research is changed my position to be more inclusive.

We have sex segregated space as a form of safe guarding.

Safeguarding works like a seal

@donquixotedelamancha

Yes and no. In many regards sex segregated spaces do not work and do not afford women (trans or via) greater safety. Just the illusion of that.

I agree that separate women's and men's prisons makes sense. But I do not think leaving transwomen in men's prisons is a great idea. I also think that those convicted of sex crimes should not be kept with the general population.

I just don't agree with many who want to exclude transwomen. I'm not compelled by the argument against transinclusion.

you think male penises in female spaces = bad
but female penises in female spaces = not a problem
???

Srlsy?

What is the difference?

Particularly when there are more trans women who have murdered, than have been murdered...

Bibijayne
No, they have to apply for and pay for a GR certificate to legally change their birth certificate and other legal documents. They are choosing to be legally male (if transmen) or women (if transwomen). The current UK proposals do not allow for gender fluid/ or no gender as an option. To get the certificate a transperson has to give up their birth sex.

Thats just not true. Firstly, a person gains the protected characteristic of transgender from the first GP appointment; they do not have to do anything else. no drugs, no surgery, no GRC.

There is at least one gender fluid police officer; Abi/Callum, who has 2 warrant cards. On days when they are Abi, they can legally give women an intimate body search.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/

@Molokonono

Transwomen have to go through years of treatment and loving as a woman before they are allowed to have surgery. Where do those women go before they medically transition? Do you really think they should have to use male toilets etc.?

Bollocks! Finger slipped.

All safeguarding measures have to be applied across the board in order for that seal to be watertight so, for example: My friend phoned me yesterday to say she may be late picking up her Dd from school and could I grab her and take her home and she’d pick her up from mine. No problem. However, friend forgot to phone the school and let them know and so, despite me being known to the school for almost a decade, despite the friendship between us and our children being known and regularly picking her up with permission, the teacher, quite rightly, wouldn’t release her to me.

Did me or my friend kick up a fuss and scream “are you accusing me of being an abuser?!”. No. Because we understand it is not personal and for the seal to work for the safety of our children it cannot be broken as an exemption for us.

If any man or transsexual thinks the seal should be broken as an exemption for them then they do not care about the safeguarding of females who are statistically at risk from predation by males.

loving as a woman

Please tell me how to "love as a woman". I am a woman - you know, adult human female - and how no idea how to do this or what this means.

Bibijayne,

At the mildest level, I was at the Tooting Lido last week and the only woman in the women's communal changing room. Would I have felt comfortable if a naked male bodied stranger was there with me. No. And this would have put me off returning. His Self-ID is immaterial. My feelings and concerns should be able to be taken on board.

A couple of steps further, and it is reasonable to assume that women who have been victims of abuse: whether in refuges, on MH wards, or in prisons, may similarly want sex segregated spaces. Or mothers may not want their daughters coming across naked men, either at the Tooting Lido, or at Guide camp, and so on.

It is not just about potential safe-guarding issues, but also about whether trans rights to feel accepted, trump women's rights to feel comfortable. And exposure to unknown men's naked bodies will make a lot of women, well beyond those from conservative religious communities, feel very uncomfortable. To the extent that they will no longer access important things like refuges, the Girl Guides and health services. Take away protected women's spaces and you potentially take away an awful lot from women.

All the people saying that this is transphobic hate, you are wrong. I am all for people wearing whatever they want, feeling whatever they want and being happy. But not at the cost of my own sex protected rights. What rights I hear you ask?

How about the right to urinate and get changed without penis owners being present? But most men are harmless arent they? Under the GRA changes it is feasible that anybody that claims to be female can access womens toilets, which makes them unisex. Most trans women (around 80%) keep their penis. Want some stats about women being assaulted etc in single sex vs communal toilets/changing rooms? here you go.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Single sex female toilets reported 14 incidents. Gender neutral/mixed/village style reported 120 in the same period.

Thats a 800-900% increase of girls and women feeling threatened and being assualted

Why is that ok? Already 1 in 5 women between age 16-59 have reported experiencing sexual violence. And There are 11 rapes per hour of adult women, and two rapes a day in primary schools.
31% of women between 18-24 report that they were sexually assaulted as a child.

Who do think commit these crimes? it is not women .

People that have a penis have no place in women's toilets simply because they claim to "feel" like a woman. Protect your children and protect yourselves.

@Bibijayne
In many regards sex segregated spaces do not work and do not afford women (trans or via) greater safety. Just the illusion of that.

I've spent my life using men's loos. I'm not sure you are right, but even if you are I think men and women have the right to sex based privacy because that is what many of them want. I think this is a difficult (and often overstated) area and I would not want to see passing transgender women forced into men's toilets, but nor do I think self ID should give you an automatic right to women's spaces.

But I do not think leaving transwomen in men's prisons is a great idea. I also think that those convicted of sex crimes should not be kept with the general population.

Women's prisons have little capacity to deal with extreme offenders like Karen White. Even segregated, they will have opportunities to offend. Self ID would make it very hard to keep those men in men's prisons. Why should women bear this risk? Why does wearing a dress give Karen White the right to be in a woman's prison?

To repeat:

• Do you honestly think that self ID women like Pippa Bunce are women? If so, in what sense?
• Do you really think we are all motivated by transphobia? Does this include the transsexuals opposing self ID?

@DisrespectfulAdultFemale

Living as a woman. Clearly an autocorrect boo boo. Typing one handed on phone

Many women need women only spaces and services. If you allow them to become unisex, what are women supposed to do?

@donquixotedelamancha

I don't know enough about Pippa Bounce to comment.

And I wouldn't say motivated by transphobia - just that the current campaign against gender recognition act is often based on transphobic concepts and beliefs.

@upsttartcrow

I have no issue with women's spaces. I just believe that transwomen are women and should be allowed the same access.

Do tell, @bibijayne, what it means to "live as a woman". Menstruate? Give birth? Use contraception so as not to get pregnant? Be paid less? Experience misogyny? Have menarche? Go through menopause? Have cervical or uterine cancer?

These are all things that women do or have happen to them and that distinguish them from men.

Dammit, reposted without accidental misgendering.

bibijayne, you're contradicting yourself.

You say that transwomen have to go through years of "living as a woman" in order to get their GRC, and that this should comfort women that it is only for people serious about transition, with dysphoria, and we shouldn't worry because such people are not a threat to us.

But am I correct in thinking that you support sex self-ID and the amendment to the GRA? Which means that none of that will apply.

So by your reasoning, we've lost the level of comfort we used to have. But we shouldn't worry, because that's irrational.

That makes no sense.

Transwomen have to go through years of treatment and loving as a woman before they are allowed to have surgery. Where do those women go before they medically transition? Do you really think they should have to use male toilets etc.?

Stop @ing people that are already here.

Do you know what, I don't think the problem is for women to solve.

It is for trans lobby to petition for their safety, not for women to have to accept men into their spaces. Who says that trans women are a threat in men's toilets in the first place? Surely it is for MEN to change their attitudes not for women to lose their spaces?

80-90% of trans women do not and have no intention of having their penises removed. I do not think they should be able to walk into women's toilets, and if women complain, that the women be accused of 'hate speech'. Which is basically the reality of Self ID.

It also does not have the way for predatory men to pretend to be women in order to attack them in women's spaces. A gender recognition certificate means you are changing gender

That's exactly what Karen White did.

Do any TRAs have or even want a GRC?

Yes and no. In many regards sex segregated spaces do not work and do not afford women (trans or via) greater safety. Just the illusion of that.

Firstly how do sex segregated spaces not work?

Secondly, what's a 'via' woman? 😬 Is this a new way of labelling us or just autocorrect mistake.

@UpstartCrow

What an odd thing to say. I have empathy. Just don't agree with you and your views. Is it chilling that you have no empathy for my view point? What an odd thing to say. Disagreeing in a debate does not mean people are incapable of seeing other view points or emotions.

@Juells autocorrect on Samsung changes cis to via apparently.