To encourage Ocado shoppers to read this

[Estellesylvia]

If you are an Ocado customer, you should be aware that they consider defining ‘woman’ as an adult human female to be hate speech and not ‘in line with their values’.

They threatened to pull advertising from Primesite unless Primesite took down a billboard with the OED definition of woman on it.

They have received hundreds of complaints from women since, but have refused to apologise.

Just in case you might want to consider not giving your money to a company who consider the word woman to not be in line with their values.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3376466-ocado-boycott-after-support-of-primesight-action

And if you do decide to boycott, tell them why.

So, this is at least the third thread about this in the last couple of days. You want to destroy a company that employs 12,799 staff for an ill-judged tweet?

And as I said before, they don't have an official view on the dictionary definition of a woman. They did have a problem with associating with a company which (without knowing the goady context) placed a hoarding for a person banned from here for repeated transphobic language and from Twitter for similar reasons.

But well done you, because your "brave" stand is much more important than 13,000 jobs isn't it?

(PS I don't condone their idiot CEO's behaviour either).

I don't know about anybody else, but I would be far more accommodating to the old-school transexuals (i.e. gay men who have had surgery) in female spaces than I am towards heterosexual men with penises who ID as female.

I do think in years to come our genders will be seen as more fluid

Genders have been fluid for centuries.

In so much as men have worn skirts, women have worn trousers and neither means you have changed sex.

With regards to sex however, until people that produce sperm carry and gestate babies, there will always be males and females; one produces the sperm and the other produces the eggs. It's kinda basic biology.

bibi as a feminist, I expect you have read around the subject, and applied some critical thinking before you have decided in your values. So I am surprised that you have dismissed the concerns raised merely as 'bigotry', despite the detailed and varied reasons given why people do not support self-ID.

Where is the nuance in your assessment of this stance? Or do you think it is simply bigoted to worry about the physical safety of women? With no other reasoning possibly being behind that worry? If so, why?

Why is it every thread you all deny that you’ve tarred transwoman with the same brush?To answer your question. On the first two pages of this thread alone, no distinction just said:

Trans women are not and never will be women.

Who knew women were so pro female prisoners being sexually assaulted by 'trans women'.

People cannot be born in the wrong body, they ARE their body.

People with penises are clearly men.

Handmaiden is not an academic term

I agree that if we are asking for courtesy then handmaiden would be better avoided, but I've reported that post for the other abuse in it.

@Bibijayne. Having been deleted for this already why do you insist on calling people names in a way explicitly against the talk guidelines.

One small strand of this is the fact that some amongst the Stonewall Trans definition, seem to have quite an odd idea of what identifying as female involves. People like "Pips" Bunce, a Credit Suisse Managing Director, who appeared on a FT top 100 Women in Business list last week, chooses to dress as a woman two or three times a week, yet is male, and married with children. Though his suits are quite conservative, his dress sense on the days he identifies as a woman veers towards the Grayson Perry style guide.

Our poor girls. First they have the Kardashian/social media view of femini9ty. Then they have men whose female identity is rather odd. Who is saying that it is OK to be a tom boy, to aspire to be an engineer etc. And now Ocado is denying the very definition of women. No wonder a rapidly increasing number of girls have started to worry that they are not really female, and should be taking the hormones and growing beards. Though rarely mentioned, a far higher number of girls now want to transition, than boys. I don't know, but suspect a link with the cause often given for teenage anorexia, which is to delay/prevent puberty.

When a Conservative Cabinet Minister raised concerns about this rapid trend, she was, inevitably, met with widespread abuse. It is a pity Ocado and their friends don't understand that denying the current definition of female carries with it huge risks. Or perhaps they are not realy interested in the wellbeing of girls and women. And worth noting that the majority of girls who identify as male, will go on to change their minds, perhaps when they come across more normal/achievable role models.

You want to destroy a company that employs 12,799 staff for an ill-judged tweet?

Surely THEY are the ones that want to destroy themselves, by refusing to simply say 'sorry of course the concept of 'woman' as adult human female exists'?

Well let them apologise to their customer base then. I believe only one complaint was made about the billboard by the way.

You want to destroy a company that employs 12,799 staff for an ill-judged tweet?

Nice try. It would be very easy for Ocado to clarify this publicly instead of weaseling down the phone that they didn't mean it. They want it both ways.

If a company maintains such bad customer relations that it loses its customers don't blame the customers, blame the company.

Tortoise, there is definitely anger, yes. It is not strange. It is justifiable fury that women are yet again facing an assault to their rights. With women like you abetting it.

As another great feminist said just yesterday, women are allowed to be angry.

Questioning self ID and having empathy for people with a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria are not mutually exclusive.

If I'd been born male, diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and fully transitioned to the point where I considered myself female, I'd be horrified to see men like Philip Bunce. Turning up at Credit Suisse on his "Pippa" days, dressed like a stereotype of a woman, and expecting his colleagues to accept that he IS a woman on that day, but also IS a man on another.

There's a serious and adult argument to be had about including people in the former category in women's spaces. There's an equal argument to be had about questioning the call for inclusion, at the expense of existing safeguarding policies (amongst many other considerations) by the latter.

Unfortunately the latter group are far more vocal and often display misogynistic views. They're allowed to be angry, and so are women. Hence the poster.

It's much easier to shout abuse than to become educated about an issue. Some people of course don't want to be educated, because they might learn something that makes them question their knee-jerk reaction.

I'm not in the least bit threatened by a fully and medically transitioned dysphoric person, born a male now living as a female. I still think their birth certificate should state male, as that's a historical record. I am however threatened by the idea that a male police officer could perform an intimate body search on me on the days that he self ID's as a female. He (and people on here) have the right to be angry about that. And so do I.

No one wants to destroy Ocado Gerda. We’d like them to own their misogyny and apologise for it.

I assume you or a family member works there, hence your concern for their employees. Perhaps they should speak up, too.

Mummy what is a frog?
It's anything that croaks like a frog darling.
But what is a frog?
Any creature who says it's a frog, is a frog.
Is this picture of a frog, a frog?
No darling. That's a Spawn Frog. It agrees with the once traditional, now banned definition of frog.
Is this picture of a fish, a frog?
Yes darling. Well done. Clever CisBoy.

Earlywalker none of those examples are saying any thing negative about transwoman in general, they are stating facts. Do facts make you uncomfortable? If The law is altered to dilute the meaning of woman, this will open the door for all kinds of predatory males to abuse women. The knock on affect of this will be to turn the public massively against ALL trans women. A massive own goal.

For me: share space with a gender-dysphoric transwoman like Jan Morris. Has never been, and continues not to be, a problem. Share space (e.g. the communal changing rooms in a gym) with part-time cross dresser and member of the FT top 100 women of the year list Pips Bunce: yes, damn right I'd have a problem with that

I'd say that is close to my position. Most of the transexual (their definition) women I know just want to lead a quiet life minding their own business as they have done for decades. They are no more happy with unregulated self ID and the erasure of sex as a protected characteristic than I am.

I’m sick of being polite - that’s how we have got into this mess.

A woman is an adult human female.
Women do not have penises.
Transwomen are transwomen.

Won't shop with anyone who is so rude to its customers.
Women are adult human females. Nothing hateful about that.

On the subject of police officers would any woman on here wish to be searched by this gender fluid Met police officer on a day in which they identified as Abi?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/

You want to destroy a company that employs 12,799 staff for an ill-judged tweet?

But is it reasonable to expect them to publicly admit it was a mistake. Its been a week now. They have lost a lot of long-term customers, and they still won't. Silence speaks louder than words.

The market size remains the same, so presumably Waitrose, veg box deliverers, and hopefully the High Street will increase employment. From the size of the CEO's renumberation it did not sound as if his staff got a particularly good deal anyway. They will almost certainly be better off as John Lewis Partners.

Does anyone remember what Eammon Holmes said yesterday about a men presenting being allowed to legally insert his fingers into a woman's vagina, because he 'feels' like a woman and it is not a woman's right to oppose this?

Someone I am sure will know the exact wording.

I think I have their definition of woman figured out:

It's someone that lives in a stereotypically feminine manner, and conforms to a man's idea of femininity.

How's that? So that obviously means most of us c**ty types aren't women! Bet most ppl know who to approach,ie, what kind of woman they need, for the continuation of the human species though.

And as I said before, they don't have an official view on the dictionary definition of a woman. They did have a problem with associating with a company which (without knowing the goady context) placed a hoarding for a person banned from here for repeated transphobic language and from Twitter for similar reasons.

They chose to make a public announcement. Nobody asked them to. Or perhaps TRAs asked them to, who knows? Whichever, it was their choice and there are consequences. Women can choose to buy elsewhere.

It's the same kind of contempt for your customers that Ratner showed, and his company went down the pan. I've never seen anyone sympathising with him and with the workers who lost their jobs. He did it, all by himself, because the mask slipped and he let his customers know that he held them in contempt.

It's prejudiced crap. 'adult human female' clearly implies that to be a 'woman' you have to be 'female' (ie have female genetalia) when it's well documented that people can be born in the wrong body and still identify as a woman.

So what you're saying is that an (adult human) female is someone with the genitalia, but a woman is a social construct and is anyone who identifies as a woman, regardless of their genitalia?

In which case, could we not have (for example) female and male changing rooms at swimming pools?