To encourage Ocado shoppers to read this

[Estellesylvia]

If you are an Ocado customer, you should be aware that they consider defining ‘woman’ as an adult human female to be hate speech and not ‘in line with their values’.

They threatened to pull advertising from Primesite unless Primesite took down a billboard with the OED definition of woman on it.

They have received hundreds of complaints from women since, but have refused to apologise.

Just in case you might want to consider not giving your money to a company who consider the word woman to not be in line with their values.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3376466-ocado-boycott-after-support-of-primesight-action

And if you do decide to boycott, tell them why.

When did the definition of the word woman become a dissenting view?

This is playing out like a psyop. Very disturbing.

Why is saying "transwomen are not women, transwomen are transwomen, and that's fine, and to be celebrated and supported" transphobic?

No-one is saying all transwomen are criminals, or abusers. Just that there's a huge difference between saying "transwomen are transwomen, and while I have no problem with them being treated legally as if they were women in about 99% of cases, there's an important 1% - prisons, closed psych wards, domestic violence shelters, rape crisis centres - where biological sex matters" and saying "transwomen are quite literally and actually women, therefore they must be included in all women's spaces without exception or qualification."

Trustlilot has been a useful outlet - since ocado isn't publically saying anything else.

Do you think that tarring all transwoman with the same brush, basically as ‘dangerous’ to women and their rights are actually doing your cause any favours?

We are doing the total opposite to this.

Another stealth trans-bashing thread. Great.

I can understand people not being particularly arsed about Ocado standing by the removal of the poster but all this enthusiastic handmaiden 'best company ever' shit is just nauseating. They ignore the equality act and object to women being defined as 'adult human female'. What's so great about that that it causes people to rush to buy tinned tomatoes and loo roll?

"They think "woman" is an idea in a man's head and has no basis in material reality. They actively think biological sex is not the basis for female oppression and believe gender stereotypes are innate! Lets stock up on 3 for £10 mince!"

Another stealth trans-bashing thread. Great.

Another virtue signaller wanting to throw women's rights down the shitter. Great.

Earlywalker you have constructed a straw man, or 'read' what you have expected to read, rather than pay attention to what has actually been written.

Who has 'tarred all transwomen with the same brush'?

Many posts on here have stated sympathy for trans individuals, and have referenced the idea that predatory males will jump on the bandwagon and pretend to be trans, in order to gain access to vulnerable women and girls. In my own posts, I have attempted to make it clear that I am sympathetic to the plight of those with dysphoria, it's just that I cannot agree that anybody's self-declared 'right' to legally become the opposite sex should trump the rights of women, given the ramifications of them doing so.

I have posed you a couple of questions in my earlier posts, do you care to answer them? I am genuinely interested in your replies.

By simply putting constantly that all trans woman are dangerous, you are ultimately being seen as transphobic to others

Where has this happened? I've never seen anyone say that all trans women are dangerous. I've seen plenty highlighting the risks of unregulated self id.

as many people (myself included) will have childhood friends for example who are trans

Me too, going back over 30 yrs when I was campaigning for decent treatment for people with gender dysphoria. Almost universally they are unhappy about the unregulated self ID approach and their erasure as a specifically transexual identity. They have been abused by the Woke Brigade just like any woman who speaks out.
Much the same as many intersex people who have objected to their experiences being appropriated under the apparently endless trans umbrella.

But apparently they don't count either.

Pebblespony read more carefully, so you can get the nuance.

By simply putting constantly that all trans woman are dangerous..

Absolutely no one is saying this.
There is however plenty of evidence that sexual predators are taking advantage of the trans movements refusal to allow any kind of criticism of anyone calling themselves trans. Karen White, being the most obvious example.

Most of us are very supportive of trans people. If trans activists and people like Harrop were genuinely supportive of trans people, then they wouldn't use words like truscum that actually are transphobic.

But even social constructs are not arbitrary. Take "being a Christian". People were killed in their tens of thousands in the Middle Ages over being the "wrong sort of Christian", i.e. a heretic or schismatic.

I agree that there is far more definition to the term Christian than to the way some of these AWA are using the term woman. But there are groups which aren't really Christian (in the accepted, historical sense) yet still self identify as such. We can't police that because it's ultimately a social grouping.

I think these AWAs want some boundaries on womanhood, or at least markers of it- high heels, make up, certain clothes, pink, sexiness and, of course, saying you are a woman.

Contrast this with another social construct with real world consequences - nationality. I can't rock up at the passport office and say "I self ID as British, give me a passport."

I think that's a pretty good analogy for what they want. They want something as ill defined as being a goth to have legal status and special rights.

(N.B. I am not equating gender dysphoria to being a goth. I am only discussing the ideology of AWAs)

Woah I’ve learnt a few things on this thread! I didn’t realise that there could be such a thing as a lady dick?! Really?!

If you are a lesbian and refuse to suck one you are transphobic and getting beaten up for it is fine.

Hang on....have I read that right? It is considered offensive for a woman to be described as an adult human female?? If a woman is not an adult human female what are they then?

I must have read it wrong. There is no other way to describe a woman. That's the dictionary definition...🤯

Do you ever stop and think that maybe you would be taken more seriously if you were more accepting and understanding of dysphoria as a whole and genuine trans people but we’re against self ID or campagned for the right to be able to request a biologically born woman in intimate situations instead?

Who is this to? That paragraph literally describes exactly what I think. If you are against self ID and in favour of sex segregation where there is specific need, then I can't see where we disagree. My impression is the majority of posters would agree.

There are some transphobic posters. I report those posts and MN are usually quick to remove. As you can see from the removals on this thread there are probably more anti-women posters.

I think that's a pretty good analogy for what they want. They want something as ill defined as being a goth to have legal status and special rights.

(N.B. I am not equating gender dysphoria to being a goth. I am only discussing the ideology of AWAs)

I think that's an accurate summing up of the problem, Don. And the crucial thing to remember is that while having genuine gender dysphoria is a real condition, and definitely not like being a goth, the "trans umbrella" now covers a lot more than gender dysphoria, and encompasses people whose self-declared trans status is much closer to "being a goth" than admirable transwomen like Jan Morris.

Stonewall's definition includes "cross dressers." There's a much-circulated video of trans health adviser Tara Hewitt lecturing to a group of female HCPs in which Tara discusses the scope of the trans umbrella and explicitly includes cross dressers whose motivation is sexual.

And therein lies the problem. For me: share space with a gender-dysphoric transwoman like Jan Morris. Has never been, and continues not to be, a problem. Share space (e.g. the communal changing rooms in a gym) with part-time cross dresser and member of the FT top 100 women of the year list Pips Bunce: yes, damn right I'd have a problem with that.

' Implies that to be a woman you have to be an adult human female'

Erm.....

And another thing re the enthusiastic racing to Ocado from handmaidens - OCADO DON'T EVEN BELIVE IT!

You are rushing to support a company who are investing huge time and resources into telephoning individual customers and telling them that really, the tweet never should have gone out and that women isn't an adult human female is not their official stance. They are trying to have their cake and sell it.

then they wouldn't use words like truscum that actually are transphobic.

Posters who haven't followed the current debacle mightn't know that 'truscum' is how transactivists refer to people who've had all the medical treatment, have lived quietly as women for years, and are frightened by the aggression that's now entered the discussion, and by the prospect of self ID.

*Implies that to be a woman you have to be an adult human female'

Erm.....*

Which is correct...

Hang on....have I read that right? It is considered offensive for a woman to be described as an adult human female??

Yes.

A group of women wanted to meet in Leeds yesterday, they booked a council owned room and then it was cancelled on them with a couple of hours to go.

Others have been disrupted by protesters and at least one had a bomb threat made.

And therein lies the problem. For me: share space with a gender-dysphoric transwoman like Jan Morris. Has never been, and continues not to be, a problem. Share space (e.g. the communal changing rooms in a gym) with part-time cross dresser and member of the FT top 100 women of the year list Pips Bunce: yes, damn right I'd have a problem with that.

And it is DAYS until the consultation closed, the second situation may be about to become law.

Liverpool council have already gone down the gender neutral toilet route, as have some schools.

On twitter someone took her little girls to a music lesson, they wanted to use the toilet but mum didn't want them sharing the space of the new gender neutral toilets with a man.

The people shouting, 'trasphobia' on here and the feminism boards think that's not just OK but to be encouraged.

Earlywalker no one is tarring all trans gender women with the same brush but single sex spaces exist for a very good reason. In the same way no one is saying all men are rapists but because you cannot tell by looking at a man whether or not he is a rapist women are able to access single sex spaces when they are at their most vulnerable, in hospitals, prisons, toilets etc for their own protection.

And you seem to be saying that women will have to be seen to be nice and come across as sympathetic, something men never have to do in order to make themselves heard.

There is so much deliberate misinformation and disingenuity in the way this issue has been discussed in this thread and on MN generally
Please PLEASE give us the information then. There have been posters calling for it on a daily basis. Let's start with a new definition of "woman", since adult human female is considered unacceptable.

@Estellesylvia wow I’m a bit, wtf? And I never use wtf. where is all this coming from?

There is an intensity and aggression that is strange.

I do think in years to come our genders will be seen as more fluid, however wouldn’t this be better achieved through better listening and understanding to each genders experience?

Which has to start from an acknowledgement that there are biological and cultural differences, experiences. It cannot start saying that there are no differences. And yet want to be that different gender? It doesn’t make any sense.

I mean, what the hell are ladydicks doing being part of this debate? This just made up nonsense.