To wonder if a second vote is possible?

[LEMtheoriginal]

Could there be a 2nd referendum or is it too late?

Ucant

Amen to that...

But Mouse do you think that Parliament alone should decide on Brexit? And if they did do you mean that they should decide to go against the majority of Voters? The Electorate? Okayyy

Is that your version of 'democracy'?

Unlike Elections, where votes are cast within a Constituency so, in many of constituencies every vote doesn't necessarily have 'meaning/count'; in a Referendum every vote does count.

And Parliament Enacts - and it isn't 'simples'.

Let's say we had had a Referendum about

Going to War against Iraq and the Electorate Voted No and Parliament decided to go Against it. Would that have been ok?

And if they did do you mean that they should decide to go against the majority of Voters?

Yes because they are in a position to examine the facts in a way that the general public aren't. It's their duty to act in what they believe to be the best interests of the country, and if they don't believe Brexit is in the best interests, they should vote accordingly.

And thanks for that Greenland info Pere - it probably was in there with all the other subconscious trivia/info floating beneath the surface of my
conscious mind; informing my decisions.

So, we must agree, that due to The Greenland Precedent, it was pretty obvious that extricating ourselves from The EU was going to be a long-drawn affair.

I didn't pay any attention to what Farage, Buses, any Campaigners,etc had to say or forecast; I made up my own Mind.

Hatels

Iraq is a Poor choice of example.

Going to war (and bear in mind there was never a formal declaration of war - it was an intervention in Iraq which legally is different) is the prerogative of the executive.

Quite rightly, something like that would never be put to a referendum

I'd be more ready to let Parliament do it all if it wasn't so full of Politicians with such an unstable Membership/Population. The Electorate are far more constant in its Membership.

Maybe you mean Government? The whole shebang of Civil Servants, Lords, Advisors, etc....should they decide? If so, why even bother having Elections for Parliament - we could just throw all the Electorate's Names in Hat and choose MPs that way.

Maybe not such a bad idea really.

I didn't pay any attention to what Farage, Buses, any Campaigners,etc had to say or forecast; I made up my own Mind.

You may not have done, but thousands would have done. If Davis, Fox and co. had bothered to read up about Greenland then they would have known that the statements they were making were little more than a pack of lies.

Or you could just scrap Parliament, and Govern by Referenda, and let the Civil service execute the result.

10 - an important example actually. I think the Electorate may well have voted No on that one - TB lied to Parliament and they voted Yes.

Parliament may well have listened to the Electorate and voted No.

There isn't enough time for a(nother) referendum, unless they first change the law - so there's really not time times two.

What a time to be alive, when it's a constant toss up whether it's the Government or the Opposition who are more out of touch and ineffectual... Who was it that said the people get the government they deserve?!

Peregrine, how many Remain Voters do you think had "read up on Greenland".

Frankly, you make a good point about The Greenland Precedent, but I do think that most informed Leave Voters are not at all surprised by the Extraction Process.

I know using the words informed and Leave Voter together is something that produces palpitory vehemence amongst many Remain Voters as it doesn't sit within their sphere of understanding.

Names in Hat Please

I'm not commenting on 'my version of democracy'. I would like significant changes to the U.K. constitution. I am commenting on the version of democracy we have, the one that Brexit supporters hold dear and want to protect from the EU.

What you wish and hope for and want is more or less irrelevant. We are a representative democracy with a sovereign parliament. Referenda are advisory and parliament is sovereign.

The concept of an executive decision is difficult when we have a constitution where the executive and the legislature are merged.

In a representative democracy parliament has the duty to make the best decision for the country not to simply obey the wishes of the electorate. As has been said by many Brexit supporters if you don't like this version of democracy others are available.........

Mouse you make some interesting points. Just to add to them the UK doesn't actually have a written Constitution and Govt also includes The Church and The Monarchy (with increasingly reduced Powers). The source of many an Essay -eg: The UK Citizen is not a Citizen, etc.

My own view is that Party Politics is counter-productive and prevents Freedom of Thought and Decision - most MPs don't actually agree with every single decision their Party makes, in or out of Govt, but most are 'whipped' into following the 'party line'.

And if there was ever a chance to reform how UK Democracy works it would be in a post-Brexit UK.

Hater (sic 😉) - attention to detail is all. There was no Leave detail on the referendum vote. There didn't need to be any 'Remain' as it was 'what we're currently doing'.

I mention this because it was my DB who voted out, not my DP.

Seeing as half the idiots in this country were apparently duped by a bus... let’s hope so.

girlsblouse I have always respected the result of general elections because both all parties have a platform on which to debate, sometimes endlessly, night after night. I may not agree, thus I will, and do put my energy into changing that, at the next GE. And also in the knowledge that, by and large, only the slightly-to-well informed actually vote, not rabble-roused by the likes of the odious Farage. Coz we have a democracy.

Be aware, there will be many on here who feel outraged that a Leaver supports a further referendum with Remain as an option!

Now we know those pesky facts. 😂

I was just about to go miljah - there wouldn't have been any 'detail' in the Referendum Vote because

a) DC called it not believing for a second that the Electorate would vote Leave, hence his rapid departure to A Life New the next day

b) The details are too intricate, unknown and voluminous to include in a Ballot Paper - rather than read through 2.6m height of Paper - best put an X.

c) better have a word with your DB about calling people "regional racists", I know it's not legally Hate Speech but he's rather leaning that way, calling people racists because they live in "regions" - the previous term was "provincials" I believe.

Funny you call me Hater - who do you think I hate?

Milja

‘Pesky facts’? Other than the fact the eu is intransigent and our current govt couldn’t negotiate its way out of a paper bag I suspect for most people little has changed

The government tried to stoke ‘buyers remorse’ with project fear but given that was a damp squib most us just see crying wolf where you stand frantically shouting ‘FACTS’!

It is at times like this that our system of representative democracy is tested. MPs need to vote for what they believe to be best for the country not what is the whipped direction of their party.

Some parallels have been drawn with appeasement prior to WW2. MPs as individuals knew it was the wrong decision but would not vote against their party leader.

A democracy is only as strong as the people who represent it. So at this time of crisis we look to our MPs. If they require advice and ask for a referendum then so be it. Or if they make the decision to proceed or halt Brexit that is how our democracy works.

Having just found out about the Kavenaugh decision in the US I despair of the idea that politicians can do the right thing.

how many Remain Voters do you think had "read up on Greenland".

Probably not many, but they weren't proposing to Leave, so they didn't need to read what the Leave process might have entailed. That does not excuse, Gove, Johnson, Fox, Davis, Redwood and all the others, who as sitting MPs and in some cases leaders of the Leave campaign have a duty to consider the good of the country, so the least they could have done was propose a realistic time scale and some costs. A duty which they are in dereliction of IMO.

Just to add to them the UK doesn't actually have a written Constitution

I believe not strictly true, but it's not codified into one document. Laws passed by Parliament, laws established by court judgments being two areas. So the 1689 Bill of Rights which inspired the American constitution and the 1911 Parliament Act are two which are considered constitutional.

Ah yes Pere, we have Acts and Convention, but still no written Constitution - not Citizens yet still Subjects - anyway a moot point.

With regards to Gove et al, referring to your previous points about Parliamentarians being in a better position to know of and examine facts are you saying that the MPs that campaigned for a Leave vote didn't examine any facts and only the MPs that campaigned for Remain did?

Moose

Your post of 1918 has to be one of the most impressive pieces of dissembling self-rationalising logic I have ever seen

Basically you don’t like a certain kind of democracy (referenda) so you want another type of democracy (parliament) to overrule that

Something you are forgetting is that many mps would like to keep their jobs. Remember the furore and damage caused to the Lib Dem’s over tuition fees? Well that was child’s play compared to what would happen to a political party that decided it knew best and that it would ignore those ‘racist provincials’ who voted in 2016. It would be smashed at the polls as untrustworthy and arrogant.

But bravo on what was an amusing post anyway - says a lot about your thought processes...

One has to hope that the MPs who campaigned for a Leave vote did examine the facts, but if so, why were they not ready with some concrete proposals when Leave won? (Instead of, in Gove and Johnson's case, looking like a pair of six year olds caught raiding the biscuit tin.)
Contrast this with Peter North, a long time leaver, who has published comprehensive and researched documents for a few years now.