To wonder if a second vote is possible?

[LEMtheoriginal]

Could there be a 2nd referendum or is it too late?

I hope there is another vote. While there are obviously a sizeable chunk of people who voted leave based on a genuine belief it would be better, there are also large numbers of people who voted without any comprehension for what they were going. A referendum should never have happened at the time it did, with the piss poor evidence and lies that were spouted. There wasn’t anything for the public that outlined clearly some of the things they were really voting for. I think a second vote on the actual terms of the deal would be democratic. It would give people the chance to vote on something real and tangible.

User

A vote on the terms of the deal - ok but against what’ll alternative?

I think a second vote on the actual terms of the deal would be democratic. It would give people the chance to vote on something real and tangible

So the options would be 1)vote for the deal (that hasn’t even been agreed yet and probably won’t be) or 2) Vote no deal.

Have I understood correctly user?

The terms of the deal are far too vast to vote on. They'd be a referendum a day!

There's too many different facets of it. Too many different industries and regulations. Its really not feasible imo.

The only thing you could vote on is 'yes or no' to a no deal situation.

But what would ‘no’ to no deal mean? What is the outcome of that?

Thats my point. Its not anything to have a referendum on. You can only vote on actual things. Voting 'yes' to no deal is very unlikely unless you are naive and have no clue so most people would vote for a deal. And a deal is what they are working for anyway.

Will those who disagree with the referendum result stop undermining those who voted to leave.

A vote to remain was a vote for the medium term status quo and a vote for the known and easy to feel confident that we would stay as we are and with no uncertainty. A vote to leave was a vote to venture into the unknown but with faith that it would be better for the country's future, but obviously this comes with uncertainty and understandably a fear of the unknown. No one knows for certain if this was a good decision or a bad one, only time will tell, but enough people had faith at the time of the referendum that it was a good decision.

People's reasons for voting to leave varied. Much of the media coverage over the past 40 years was very negative against the EU and that must have rubbed off on people's views. Many remember voting in the referendum in the 1970s to remain in the EEC and then it was mostly to do with free trade and customs. Many became nervous however over the past 30 years that the EU wanted to move closer to political, legal, financial integration as well as economic. Most were happy with the single market when there were a small number of economically homogeneous countries in the EU but when more countries joined the EU from less well off countries and many moved from the less wealthy nations to the wealthier nations, many became nervous about large amounts of migration and the affects on jobs, wages, infrastructure. Farmers and fishermen felt they had bad deals when it came to quotas. Many saw EU politicians as corrupt and lining their own pockets. Many saw the EU as wasteful and inefficient and full of bureaucracy and red tape and slow in decision making. Many were worried about the EU moving towards political union and the UK becoming a Federal State of Europe. Many did not like the fact that the UK was the third highest payer into the EU and paid more than we got out in terms of subsidies. Many did not like that laws in the UK were being overruled by EU legislation. I think the biggest reason people voted to leave was that the EU's main objective is federalism. That has been a concern for many people over many years.

Am sure there were many more reasons people voted to leave. Whether you agree with these reasons or not, you need to respect the fact that 52% of those who voted thought that these reasons were legitimate to them and that they felt them that important enough to risk the status quo and to take our future on a different path. Leavers are nervous too, more so because we seem to have a weak government who have not dealt with the negotiations well and seemed to have turned Brexit into a bit of a farce. Please respect each other though and respect each others right to different views.

I do think though that we should have a second in/out referendum once we understand what the final deal is we are likely to get. Also I don't think there was enough discussion before about NI. We also need to think about whether coming out of the EU is likely to split up the UK.

We were fine before we joined the EU, and we will be fine when we leave, next March.

[grin[

Indeedy, back when Britain was known as the sick man of Europe we were totally fine.

Indeedy, back when Britain was known as the sick man of Europe we were totally fine.

Wasn't it the late 1970s when we were known as the sick man of Europe? We were already in the EEC by then

And what happens after a second vote, whichever side loses will ask for another one ad infinitum ad nauseam, will still be voting a hundred years from now.

Time to stop the pathetic whining and get on with your life.

No, there should not be further referendums after a second referendum, not for the foreseeable future anyway.

GirlsBlouse- but you are assuming we all think that ever closer ties to Europe are a bad thing!

We must also remember that our own MEPs were involved in drafting EU legislation, at least, those that bothered to turn up- looking at arch-Brexiteer, Farage. I actually thought we got rather a few concessions from the EU- I mean, weren't not trading Euros, are we? We had it in our ability to control EU immigration by removing the work-shy, but chose not to. You can't blame the EU for that! But I think many in the 'regions' who voted Leave are in for some nasty surprises. If one's point of view is that this'll 'stick it to the poncey southerners, they should come up 'ere and see how awful our lives are'- they're going to get a lot worse, if your working tax credit or social security is being paid from the taxes of those privileged, softy southerners.

Again, be careful what you wish for.

Regarding fishing quotas, didn't many trawler owners sell their boats to the Spanish and Dutch?

Q: (from The Times 25/3/18)- "Britain’s fish will still belong to Europe after Brexit — because Spain, Holland and Iceland have bought up nearly 90% of the entire fishing quota of Wales and more than half the quota assigned to England.

Foreign owners of the fishing rights have also set up UK businesses to hold the quota, making meaningful change unlikely after the country leaves the EU.

The revelation is in fishery statistics from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra), run by Michael Gove. The environment secretary’s civil servants were compiling the data at the same time as he was claiming that leaving Europe would let Britain “take back control” of its seas."...

And no, I won't 'respect the fact' (that 52% of the country voted Leave) because I do not respect the Brexit Referendum. It was poorly conceived, badly, if not corruptly lobbied for; many 'vested interests' manipulated 'facts' and, sadly 'hope' is not a sound basis for any decision, let alone one which will affect us, and our children so profoundly for the next at least decade.

So yes, I very much want to see, not 'a second referendum' as this is about something different. I favour Keir Starmer's idea, to include Remain as an option. And I strongly suspect many Leavers' horror at that idea is because, like some on here, many people, now furnished with the facts of what Brexit might actually mean, would vote Remain.

user149 "And people like Gina Miller need to do one"...

-then you wonder why so many Leavers are considered 'not that clever'...

I see a lot of Leavers on here quite perturbed by the thought of another referendum.... it's all dressed up in 'Leave means Leave!' (although none can actually tell us what Leave will actually mean, not even our government can).

No, their justifiable fear is that if Remain is an option on that referendum- I suspect it would win comfortably right now.

And no, I don't think the government are making a hash of the Brexit negotiations. They are discovering that old adage that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

When anyone says we were fine in the 1970's I think of the brilliant photographer Nick Hedges.

londonist.com/2014/10/the-horrors-of-poor-housing-at-science-museum

Er...now I'm not very clever either. I'm not surprised at all that Brexit negotiations appear to be so inexplicable and tortuous - it's the first time an EU Member has done it after all so there is no precedent set.

Also there are hundreds if not 1000s of separate agreements/issues to unpick and negotiate, some super-important like the NI/ROI border and some not so. Some will be effective immediately post-Brexit, some transitionally and some may be left to dissipate with time.

Are we to have a vote on each and every point? Because the Deal will not involve automatic and immediate change on every issue this would be near impossible.

So, with another chance to vote I would still vote Leave, given everything that has transpired since the last Referendum, because i am not surprised by any of it.

I also expect the "genuine question" posts along the lines of 'why would you destroy everything, etc, etc - so what about, etc, etc,etc' but I do think the Leave vote is rather more complex than soundbite explanations, and not quite so bereft of intelligence that many Remain voters seem to believe.

So, if there is no agreement on NI/ROI six months before we leave, is there a snowball in hell's chance for any of the others?

And are you assuming that the EU will 'allow' us as much grace time as we want on all those thousands of other things we appear to have No Idea about?

A point of interest. My DB is a Leaver. He can't quite articulate why in any way that makes sense to me, but he fully recognises that Leave 'won' due to large numbers of ill informed, uneducated chippy, racist 'regionals', for which he is grateful, but hopes that what he suspects is true: most never voted for anything before in their lives as they had no interest in civic matters, and most won't ever bother to vote again, Leave or not. Like Farage also recognises, they were easy to stir up into a froth of indignation, easy to manipulate with lies on buses; they did as they were bid, but he'd quite like them to go away and shut up now, thanks.

Which the majority will.

Miljah No, am not assuming that. Am just giving some reasons why people voted to leave. And obviously more people at the time thought they didn't want closer ties with the EU than those that did want closer ties. I agree the campaign and debate and information at the time was not good enough for such a serious decision to be made but I think many people had formed views over 40 years rather than just deciding because of a slogan on a bus. If you don't respect the result of the referendum, then you probably don't respect the result of any election and so what is the point of any of it. Saying that, I do feel there should be a second referendum with the option of remain. I think this time I would ask my daughter what she wants and go with that as it's her future. Also, I don't think I want to risk the UK being split up or troubles in NI starting again. If that means having to stay in the EU, then so be it

Which majority will do what mijah? Your post was a little incoherent but I gather your DP voted to Leave and is grateful to the "ill-informed, etc, etc...racist 'regionals''" that voted as he did although he is "unable to articulate" to you why he voted Leave?

Seems you might have more to think about than just Brexit. Does he just read Red Tops and get all his info from FB and buses too?

Did you know how "thick" he was before you married him?

I’m masters degree educated

So not ‘thick’

I would still vote leave

Milja

For the record, I think leave would win a second referendum

But that’s not the point - at what point do you stop voting and start acting

I will put aside the question as to whether if remain had won in 2016, your wish for another vote would be quite so strident...

The decision to stay or leave should be made by parliament. A referendum can inform and advise the sovereign parliament of the U.K..

I am amazed at the Brexit supporters who use 'democracy' as a term to subvert the will of Parliament.

It is Parliament that acts. Simples.

Moose

Technically you may be correct. In reality, any political party that ignores the 2016 vote result will be obliterated at the polls.

Remember the Lib Dem’s?

it's the first time an EU Member has done it after all so there is no precedent set.

Even this is not entirely true. Greenland left, although it is still a constituent part of the Kingdom of Denmark which is still a member. Greenland only had one major industry, a population of c. 50,000 and only had 9 other members to negotiate with. It took them three years. So there is a precedent of sorts: at the very least Leavers ought to have realised that it would take significantly longer than it did for Greenland.

And before Leavers tell me that 'No one said it would be easy", Fox, Davis, Farage, Gove etc. said exactly that and records of their saying so can be found with a few seconds googling.

No we’re not F*ked, we’re Fked if Labour get in and the Unions get to run the Country that’s when we’ll be F*ked. You can discuss it all you want the Majority voted out, that my Dears is called closure. Goodbye end this thread now, it’s Friday Night Godamn it.