Not to want to buy a house with DM?

[JasnahKholin]

DM and I had an argument today (or rather she ranted and I said very little, which is usually how it goes). She wants us to sell up and chip in to buy a house with her. Her reasoning as follows:

1. We could afford something much better together (true - probably a large house and garden with a decent sized annexe. She is currently in a 4 bed detached and we are in a small flat)
2. She would be around to help with childcare as DH and I are both shift workers (sort of true - but she finds it very difficult to look after both DCs at once, doesn’t often as we don’t ask. Don’t think that would change.)
3. It would be cheaper otherwise as only one set of council tax etc
4. Fundamentally and most importantly - she is lonely. She hates living alone. My dad left her 10 years ago and she has never really got over it. She currently lives half an hour away. We see her at least once if not twice a week but she thinks it is not enough. She says she would never have left one of her parents living alone.

My reasons for not:

1. We did briefly move in with her just before and after we had DS1 while we were house-hunting and it was horrific. She was incredibly controlling and unsupportive and the whole situation hugely contributed to my developing PND. She acknowledges that didn’t go well but says it was my fault as I was in ‘a funny place mentally’, (so nothing to do with her constantly hassling me to stop breastfeeding and waking me up whenever I managed to nap while the baby did as I ‘should be up and about’ ) and says it would be different if we were in a main house/ annexe type situation with own kitchens etc. I don’t think it would be.
2. DH doesn’t want to. Because of above. He has in fact said over his dead body will he ever live with her again. She does not accept he gets an equal say in this.
3. She is incredibly wearing and negative. (Admittedly mostly because she is lonely), but I find spending time with her incredibly draining. She also undermines my parenting.
4. Purely practicallly, I don’t want to settle in this area for ever. I’d like to be free to move around over the next few years and don’t want the added complication of either having to move all together or extricate ourselves financially.
5. I don’t think any house we bought with her, regardless of the arrangements of who was living where, would ever feel like ours, because she would take over.

I do feel really bad. I’m actually very pro extended family living together- I can see how of it works for all involved the benefits are huge. She is desperately unhappy and I know it would partially relieved if we did this (though I think not as wholly as she thinks it would be). But I can’t do it. It would put an incredible strain on my and DH’s relationship and would quite possibly destroy my mental health. I was very clear today that it wouldn’t happen, but she made me feel like the worst, most ungrateful daughter in the world. At one point she said she knew DH was the main stumbling block - and I said that honestly even if I was on my own with the DC I don’t think I would want to live together - and that went down like a lead balloon. She said I’m selfish and never consider her, and then started asking if there were courses she could go on to learn to be ‘hard’ and not to care about people. I don’t know what to do. I CANNOT do this but I don’t know how to make her accept that, and accept that I’m not evil for not wanting to. Or am I just being horrible? She says it’s jsut what people ‘do’ with elderly parents who’re alone (though she’s not elderly - she’s 61 ffs) but I don’t think it is? I don’t know anyone else in this position!!

@JasnahKholin No I don’t know you in RL. Was convinced that a sister was mentioned in your posts but can’t find it now? Weird

Keep saying no, OP.

Yabu even to consider for one second buying a house with her.

You are not responsible for her happiness.

I am slightly older than your mother. If anyone tried to describe me as “elderly” I’d punch them on the nose.

Your mother is responsible for her own happiness.

Apart from the fact that it sounds like it would be hell, not wanting to is a good enough reason not to.

And if she's 61, you could easily be stuck with her for another 30 years

It's quite simple, just don't do it. You lived with her for a while once and it wasn't pleasant, why repeat the experience - which would be more permanent this time.

The only time I think it works is if a big house is properly converted into two apartments, smaller one for mum and the other for child and family.

Your mother is not too old to have a life of her own.

Oh God no don't do it OP. Your mother sounds a nightmare. And stop feeling sorry for her. You are not responsible for her well being. She needs to get out and do things. Volunteering, exercise classes, learning a new skill, whatever, so she meets other people her own age and stops feeling lonely. Maybe you could find out what's available in her area and make a few suggestions?

@SpikyCactus you were clearly having a moment of clairvoyance .

Everybody else: thank you all so much. It makes such a difference to sense-check this with outside people. Obviously I’ve talked to DH about this (at length) but he’s so close to the situation that I didn’t know if from an external POV it would seem unfair. Still don’t know what I’m going to do. I don’t want just to brush this under the carpet though as it will inevitably come up again and enough is really enough.

Op, could you help your mum to have a more fulfilling life? It would turn her life around if she had friends and had activities to look forward to. Perhaps see if there's a local book club she could join. Also, there are MeetUp groups and U3A groups where people make friends and meet for lunch, theatre trips, walks etc. I'm sure she'd end up a lot happier and less dependent on you.

I have a slightly different perspective because I’ve done this with my mother and my mother did it with her mother. It worked out really well for us although it wasn’t always smooth sailing.

Based on that, I would say if either you or your husband has even the teeniest bit of doubt, don’t do it!

Based on what you have posted, please don’t feel guilty about saying no to her. I suspect saying yes will end in divorce and depression.

Your Mum is trying to use you and your family to ease her loneliness and that's not fair on any of you.

Does your Mum work?does she have friends she spends time with?hobbies she enjoys?If not those are the things she needs to start trying to work on.

Also if she's been single for 10 years has she thought about dating again?At 61 she's still quite young and could live for another 30 years,living in misery for the next year is no way to live let alone the next 30,she needs to start being proactive about the loneliness rather than expecting you and your family to upturn your life's so she's not bored.

My paternal grandmother did this. She didn't just stay living in the annexe as she had promised . She wanted to come round every evening to watch tv / socialise and eat every meal with them. Destroyed the family and caused huge financial problems when she went into care and resentment amongst her children.

3 things -

1 - don't send anything in writing. Sorry, it will cause WW3, and that's got nothing to do with phrasing and everything to do with calling her on her behaviour. Just won't work. There'll be histrionics, tears, breast- beating.

2 - plan to move soon - further away.

3 - www.daughtersofnarcissistsmothers.com
Might not be entirely accurate to your situation, but should give you some idea of what you're dealing with.

None of this would be necessary if you could just say "That won't work for us" ad nauseum. If "No" is too direct.

I'm so sorry, this is very very close to my experiences and it sucks.

No no no don't do it. If you hate the idea from the get-go (as you clearly do) it will only get worse. 61 is not old! My partners mother is 78 and still running marathons!

Oh my God, don’t do this! Can you see just how manipulative she is? Courses that teach to care less about ppl - ffs, she doesn’t care about you that much, it’s all about her and what she wants!
Btw, moving in together won’t magically make her into a happy person, she’ll be just the same, emotionally manipulating and guilt tripping you on daily basis. Look at how she takes no responsibility for horrible experience living with her before- it’s apparently all your fault because of your funny mental state. You will have this every day if you decide to go ahead with her plan.

Don’t do this, tell her it’s final and not up for discussion anymore. Put the phone down on her a few times when she goes into rant mode.
I’d be also reducing contact if she doesn’t stop.

Definitely do not do this, at 61 she could be with you for another 20-30 years, can't she get a job if she's bored and lonely, I'm 60 and my state retirement age is 66. I couldn't imagine suggesting buying a house with DS

Don't do it.
My Mum lives next door to us in a house rented from the same landlord.
The pressure to keep her happy and occupied is awful. I feel guilty if me and DH go anywhere without her.

She has one friend that she goes shopping with one a week and complains relentlessly about her.

She doesn't have a car or any hobbies and she never has any bloody money so I'm now subsiding her a lot.

I can't say anything because she moved 2,500 miles from UK to be with us.

If she is in a 4 bed detached house maybe she should downsize and do some travelling and the frivolous stuff like that, and get out and meet people that is what I would do if I was on my own and 61 is definitely not elderly.

Don’t waste your time going down the rabbit hole of ‘convincing’ her, your energies will be better spent by accepting that this is who she is and she is her only priority.

I'll echo what everyone else has said - don't do it. It sounds like a terrible idea.

Fundamentally, you cannot replace the relationship with her husband and it's not fair to expect you to try to do so. She really needs to try online dating or making new friends if she is lonely. She is not that old. I agree with pp who have said she may expect to be over every night. There are also lots of red flags in terms of manipulative behaviour etc.

I think that, whilst your e-mail is totally fair, it would probably go down very badly. If it were me I would maybe send a slightly briefer version along the lines of the following (which will probably still upset her but it sounds like anything other than giving in would upset her...)

"Hi Mum,

I wanted to talk to you about earlier. [or is it yesterday now?] I love you but you know I think living together will not work for a number of reasons. I know that you have been having a tough time since Dad left but this is not the answer. Amongst other things, I think that living together (even with a separate annex) would put a strain on the relationship between you and me which is not what either of us would want.

I know you are disappointed that I do not think this is a good idea, but I am finding it upsetting to keep discussing it so was hoping we could move on and talk about other things now.

I’ll call you at the weekend,
(Jasnah)"

I think either you or someone probably does need to put to her at some point that if she's not lonely since her marriage broke down, she needs to find some company in terms of either new friends or a new partner, but I wouldn't put it in the e-mail as she'll probably react very badly to it even though it's true.

A tough situation but it sounds like her suggestion wouldn't work for anyone (including her) so stick to your guns and good luck

Stand your ground and do not do it under any circumstances, given what you have told us in your OP.

We live with parents in poor health who need support and are in their 70s, with them in an annexe. We all get on very well most of the time, and there is certainly no emotional blackmail in our situation. It is a great solution for all of us and DH and I were both happy to take on the arrangement beforehand. We have never had any kind of falling out or difficulties in the relationship in the past. For our family, it is the best arrangement for lots of reasons, not least peace of mind in being able to monitor the health of the parents and offer support without having to leave home and travel to them. They are more willing to ask for help more often now we are on hand, rather than leaving things to reach a crisis first, which then takes far more sorting out. We often notice support is needed without them having to ask.

BUT. It is hard work at times. We drive each other mad at times. We all miss our privacy at times (although we work hard to ensure this is not too much of an issue). We could be doing this for another 20 years, and supporting older relatives and bringing up children is really demanding. As the children get older and more independent, the demands for support get larger and it is hard to see how we will ever get any real time to ourselves (DH and I) until we are potentially too old to enjoy it. And we have a really good relationship with the parents! As it happens, we know another 3 families in similar positions to us and we all agree there are stresses even when things are working well. Respect for boundaries is crucial. In all cases, relationships were really good before moving in together. It would be a disaster (IMO) if the relationships were not good beforehand.

Unless all parties are absolutely convinced it is a good idea, just say no.

On the issue of council tax, two lots is definitely still be payable with an annexe: one for the main house and one for the annexe. For council tax purposes they are counted as separate dwellings (even though for planning purposes they are often not). There are savings overall on running one house instead of 2, and the savings are felt most by those who had the larger bills beforehand - in your case this would be your mother by the sound of things. You would have the lions share of the bills on a house and annexe assuming you occupied the house.

Remove all the apologies before you send that email.
You are not responsible for her happiness.
She sounds like an emotional drain.

Are you me OP?!

My DM keeps bringing this up too, very similar circumstances of being divorced and lonely.

Sometimes I feel like screaming at her "And whose fault is it you have ended up divorced, single and lonely?!" As she simply cannot see it is HER FAULT and she is an adult who is responsible for her own life choices!

Anyway NO is a complete sentence.

Do not send any sort of email or letter, it will be shown around and used to discredit you and manipulate you. Have you heard of grey rock technique? It is the only thing that works on my DM.

She sounds like a classic narcissist and I hope you carry on growing and developing healthy boundaries to protect yourself and your DC/DH from her dysfunction. Anger is a good sign of healing believe it or not

@JasnahKholin - excellent username by the way!

I find the grey rock technique very useful with my (unhappy needy and manipulative) relative. So every time she asks to move in with us or go on holiday with us etc I reply in a sympathetic tone “Oh, that doesn’t work for us.” then move on.

When she pushes for reasons/explanations, I say “DH and I have discussed it, a lot, and it doesn’t work for us”.

Further pushing gets “Lots of reasons really. I don’t want to fall out about this, but I’m afraid there’s no chance of you moving in, it definitely doesn’t work for us”.

No apologies. No explanations that she can argue with. No hint that I’m still considering it. A bit of sympathy, and recognition that it’s hard for her, and I make clear I’m happy to support her looking for other solutions to her problems.

It still comes up pretty often but less than it did, and it’s easier to move the conversation on when it does.

Hope that helps. X

Hi OP

I think it's really important to remember that you don't need to provide any reasons or explanations here at all.

She makes her decisions, you and your DH make yours. If she's apply pressure you can tell her that you have considered it and you are not prepared to discuss it. Then just repeat.

It's not in the best interests of you, DH and your children.