Wheelchair user on the bus

[Penguinpower]

Yesterday I was taking my grandmother (in a wheelchair) to hospital on the bus (London bus) and unfortunately it was rush hour as appointment was 9.10

When the bus turned up it was completely rammed and no way we could get on. The bus driver yelled down the bus that people needed to get off to let the wheelchair on and he would give people a ticket so they could get on another bus for free. Unsurprisingly people did not want to do this, a couple of people did but most people ignored and my grandma was uncomfortable with the situation and told the bus driver not to worry. The next bus that came was also rammed and so I called a taxi.

So this is more of a WWYD but do you think people should get off to let wheelchair on or not? I’m in 2 minds as around 10 people would have to get off to let us on and they could then get on other buses easier. As easier for them to squeeze on. However, they have paid for the bus and as it is rush hour they would most likely be heading to work as no one would choose to be on that busy a bus if they didn’t have to be.

My grandma doesn’t think they should have to get off and I think I probably agree but the bus driver obviously thought they should. So what do you think?

@HelenaDove

I really dislike going upstairs on the bus because I am really scared of falling downstairs, actually that should probably be that I really dislike coming downstairs, not so much the going up. I will do so on longer bus journeys if no choice. But I admit I make a lot of rather lazy short bus journeys (by which I mean less than about 6 stops). I think one problem with London buses is that often downstairs is filled with people making short journeys eg to connect with a tube station or another bus or because they are not going that far. Some people who make short journeys also have conditions that may not be obvious.

@BlueBug45

The vomit problem sounds very unpleasant. I'm less convinced about the legs - yes, some seats are uncomfortable but most people manage, including often people with moderate disabilities who move up because they realise how difficult others might find it if they don't. And if that means you are sprawling your legs into the aisle, especially in seats nearer the front, that also makes it difficult for people who have struggled to reach seats further back to leave priority seats free for someone who needs them. I say this as someone who has a recurring leg condition which sometimes makes it difficult to get to my feet - I don't see it an excuse for plonking myself in everyone's way on the bus and preventing the 80 year old who gets on at the next stop sitting down, or even another person like me or you who gets on the bus later and who has hidden issues.

And there's no way every selfish person on the bus actually has a legitimate reason. I heard a woman saying on a fairly full bus in wet weather: Oh my bag's on the seat because I have a reason for it and don't you ask me to move it. She was fortunate not to have said it to me and that I was not near enough to tell her what I thought of her rudeness.

@BlueBug45

I would rather push him several miles than attempt the bus.

All you absolute arseholes who would stand in a wheelchair space, read this. Read it again, and again. Then read it some more. Read it as many times as it takes to realise the fucking heartache. You bunch of self centred tosspots.

Anyone who was occupying the space reserved for the wheelchair user should have got off
It’s all very well saying this, but there’s still no solution to deciding which passengers should get off. Ideally the required number of healthy able bodied adults should get off the bus, regardless of where they’re standing. I don’t see why it should specifically be the people who are standing in the wheelchair space, as they may have additional needs themselves. It’s very obtuse to just say that people standing in the wheelchair space should get off.

As I said upthread, it’s the bus company that should be the focus of the vitriol, not an ‘us vs them’ argument.

Theres no feasible way to implement a hierarchy of whom of the passengers should get off - there could be a mixture of people with hidden disabilities, vulnerable people - who decides who gives up their place?
People going to work vs people going shopping vs people going or taking their dc to school vs people going to appointments? It can’t be implemented.

Where I am the last bus is at 8pm. No one would get off that bus, and they shouldn’t be expected to. There should be ample provisions for everyone.

SpikyCactus

It’s very obtuse to just say that people standing in the wheelchair space should get off

No, it's common sense. Wheelchair users have priority of the wheelchair space. You stand in it, you move from it if it becomes necessary. It's pretty clear and logical !

SpikyCactus

It’s very obtuse to just say that people standing in the wheelchair space should get off

It really fucking isn’t. The wheelchair spot is for wheelchairs.

Please see @ambostraw ‘s post of 11.09. This applies to you.

The law is that a person should move elsewhere within the bus if there is space in order for a wheelchair user to be able to board but not that they should be expected to leave the bus if there is nowhere else.
In other words when the bus is full to capacity able bodied people are allowed in the wheelchair space and are not expected to vacate it until enough people reach their destination for there to be room elsewhere on the bus. In practice this should mean that if there is the capacity for an additional able bodied person to board a wheelchair user should also be able to do so but when a bus is at full capacity those already on the bus have priority over anyone waiting at later stops (whether or not those people are able bodied).
The difference between a bus and a parking situation is that the people in the wheelchair area on a bus can move as soon as space becomes available elsewhere but in a car park the car would remain in the blue badge bay until its owner returned even if this is many hours after an alternative bay became available.

Some information gets disseminated by a mixture of word of mouth and education eg negative impact of single use plastics, inadvisability of putting tampons down loos etc. A campaign to point out to people that wheel chair spaces are just that and can be used by other bus users or passengers with buggies if there are no wheelchair passengers but if there are then the spaces should be vacated to make room could help .If these simple facts became general knowledge then getting out of the way would become the social norm( I hope).
There are loads of threads on here about this issue leading me to think that there is a lot of ignorance but also that it is an issue that many able bodied ( see various pps who are justifying not moving) people just haven't thought through.
I found myself becoming much more aware of everyday problems for the disabled during the London Paralympics. I wouldn't have thought of myself as obtuse but my eyes seemed to be opened to the issues by seeing wheelchairs( and other aids) on screen day in and day out. All of a sudden I was seeing the wheelchair bound reaching over fridges in the supermarket or negotiating kerbs on a daily basis. It shocked me that I had been so senseless previously and I really think that lots of people who haven't had close family or friends with disabilities just don't tune in.

I think the only solution is to block off the wheelchair space so only wheelchairs can use it. It will stop all the debate about who should get off. Treat it like a blue badge space.

@sockwomble what incentive do the bus companies have to do that? How much money would they potentially lose per journey per bus per day? Never gonna happen.

It really fucking isn’t
There is really no need for foul language just because you disagree with my opinion on this topic. I agree with the court judgement mentioned earlier - it’s complex to decide who should get off the bus when some passengers may have additional needs. It shouldn’t automatically be the people who happen to be standing on the wheelchair space. They may not be well equipped for getting off the bus.

there should be busses/trains where all the seats downstairs are fold down chairs. I don’t know how do-able this would be but there must be times when more that one wheelchair/mobility aid user needs to get the same bus

The worst reaction from people when asked to move from the wheelchair space are those with huge buggies (not those for special needs) which won’t or cant fold up. Don’t they think that it’s more appropriate to get a light weight fold up buggy or a sling for use on public transport.

Upthread someone suggested that if the service isn’t meeting the needs of passengers then you should complain. Please do, it’s the only way things change - I’ve just spent a couple of weeks contacting the bus company every single time the bus was too full to stop (nobody using a wheelchair was left at a stop) and they’ve finally started using double deckers during rush hour.

I'm shocked at the number of people suggesting 'alternatives' like getting an expensive taxi or arranging patient transport (the latter, in my experience, is nigh on impossible to get). The OP's nanna should be able to turn up and get a bus, the same as any able-bodied person can. Thinking otherwise is completely missing the point of equality legislation and the OP's issue. Able-bodied passengers could quite easily have got a single spot on another bus, a wheelchair user probably would face the same problem over and over.

What if that results in a child, elderly, pregnant or disabled person having to get off the bus while able bodied adults remain on it? What if that child or whoever has to get off late at night or get off the last bus or in an unfamiliar area? .................................................................................................................. .................................... ............ Are we saying that all those people must have priority come what may? Does that mean they should automatically be at or near the front of every queue to get on a bus? Logically the position for them is no different than it would be when they can't get on the bus at all if it is too full - which may well be the case anyway if bus companies end up having to close off the wheelchair space.

elkie same here it would be likely that i would fall down the stairs i would happily get off the bus though. it wouldnt bother me.

our buses are big enough for a small market town that going upstairs usually isnt necessary.

Logically the position for them is no different than it would be when they can't get on the bus at all if it is too full - which may well be the case anyway if bus companies end up having to close off the wheelchair space. I disagree - it's not logically the same position. I sometimes used to get the bus late at night on my own after work in London. At the beginning of the journey I was in a relatively safe, well-lit area with the choice of several bus routes. If I was kicked off one halfway through I could have been in a really rough area that I didn't know well on a street without many passsers-by and waiting longer for the next bus as the several bus routes that I could take diverged. I'm not saying btw that the wheelchair user should not get priority in this situation - perhaps they should and standing passengers should be put on notice by the driver when they board that they may be asked to get off halfway through and then they can decide whether they want to take that risk. I am just saying that there are complexities that Parliament will need to consider.

That's my point really, Ally. If you stand in the wheelchair space you accept the risk that you may have to get off, no matter how rough the area or what your personal circumstances are. If you don't want to take the risk, don't stand in that space or don't get on the bus.