Wheelchair user on the bus

[Penguinpower]

Yesterday I was taking my grandmother (in a wheelchair) to hospital on the bus (London bus) and unfortunately it was rush hour as appointment was 9.10

When the bus turned up it was completely rammed and no way we could get on. The bus driver yelled down the bus that people needed to get off to let the wheelchair on and he would give people a ticket so they could get on another bus for free. Unsurprisingly people did not want to do this, a couple of people did but most people ignored and my grandma was uncomfortable with the situation and told the bus driver not to worry. The next bus that came was also rammed and so I called a taxi.

So this is more of a WWYD but do you think people should get off to let wheelchair on or not? I’m in 2 minds as around 10 people would have to get off to let us on and they could then get on other buses easier. As easier for them to squeeze on. However, they have paid for the bus and as it is rush hour they would most likely be heading to work as no one would choose to be on that busy a bus if they didn’t have to be.

My grandma doesn’t think they should have to get off and I think I probably agree but the bus driver obviously thought they should. So what do you think?

I am disabled, on PIP and incontinent. The pads cost £34 a week!! Doesn't leave much for other necessities.

It is the person receiving the mobility dla or PIP who gets to decide whether spending it on taxi is useful or not.
No wheelchair user should be advised to get a taxi because because someone without a wheelchair won't move out of the space.

Anyone standing or sitting in the ONE wheelchair space should leave the space if wheelchair user comes on. If that means having to leave the bus, so be it.

dobby if it weren’t for disabled people campaigning for years, you wouldn’t get an unfolded pram on the bus anyway!

Yes, I well remember the days when we had to fold our pushchairs before getting on the bus!

People are completely missing what I'm saying. The current system isn't working for anyone. People don't want to get off the bus where I live cause it will literally cost them to get on the next bus, the bus company have replaced the luggage rack with seats so you can't fold prams. My point is that the current system pits user against user making it less likely that people would get off the bus.
I'm not saying that the other users have it harder than the wheelchair user just that the system is stupid. A woman with a pram should give up her place for the wheelchair but if there is no luggage rack anymore she can't fold the pram, she then has to leave and pay for another ticket. If she refuses then the wheelchair user has to wait which isn't fair either. Same with a guy on his way to work on an overcrowded bus. He lets the wheelchair user on and is late to work and maybe loses pay. Nobody is winning in this system.

dobbyThe issue is with the bus company and lack of luggage space and their inability to issue another ticket. I think your points are very valid. However, they don’t justify occupying a wheelchair space when a non wheelchair user is in there.

He let's the wheelchair user on and is late to work and maybe loses pay What if the wheelchair user is late and loses pay, because they can't get into their ONE allocated space?

The only justification for abled bodied people remaining in the wheelchair space is that there is nowhere else on board for them to stand, or the bus being at its plated capacity meaning that even if the standing passengers squashed together in other parts of the bus the wheelchair user couldn't be legally accommodated (it is far from rare for the number of people who could physically fit in the available space and the legal capacity to be completely different (in both directions)).
However if a bus is at its legal capacity there is no discrimination for the bus company to not allow anymore passengers onto the bus and no discrimination on the part of passengers who choose to remain on the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board. Conversely the bus company would be opening itself up to liability if it expected anyone to alight before their destination and something subsequently happened to them, especially if the person who was asked to leave turned out to be particularly vulnerable in themselves.

Dobby, I get what you're saying. The bus company here is the same. I got off the bus one afternoon for someone in a wheelchair as DD was asleep so I didn't want to fold and there was no luggage rack anyway. The driver wouldn't give me a forwarding ticket and it was only as the bus pulled away that I realised I had no other cash on me so was stranded in an unfamiliar and mildly dodgy residential area with a baby, no cash, and no internet signal to try and Google map it. I couldn't walk the bus route as the bus turns onto the dual carriageway shortly after there so I just had to start walking and hope to find a shop and/or cash point. I didn't find either but after 25 minutes of walking around another bus went past which I flagged down and when I explained to the driver he let me on for free.

I wrote to the bus company to complain and they said that it was basically my own fault for getting off the bus and their policy on all seating, including the wheelchair space, is first come first served. I challenged them on this and said they were creating problems between passengers, putting potentially vulnerable passengers at risk by either refusing them access to the bus or putting them off the bus with no forwarded ticket and their reply to that stuck rigidly to their policy of first come first served.

Bus companies definitely need to be held to account.

It is first come, first served If the wheelchair user is the first wheelchair in the wheelchair space!

Wow PIP?/DLA really is being expected to stretch to the moon and back.

Some disabled social housing tenants have to use it to pay part of their rent.

It is first come, first served If the wheelchair user is the first wheelchair in the wheelchair space!

Not according to Arriva and they won't budge on it, trust me I've tried.

The part of their response email that confirms they don't offer forwarding tickets and that it's considered to be first come first served.

The problem with public transport for anyone with a disability IMO is it's often too overcrowded. You can adapt a bus or train or even the train station with the needs of passengers with disabilities in mind but it only goes so far if the space is overcrowded.

Buses around here have - and have had for at least 12 years, spaces for wheelchairs and pushchair spaces. They also offer a system whereby if you have to vacate the wheelchair space, the driver marks your ticket for use on another service.

I don't get why bus companies in response to this issue haven't come up with a forwarding ticket system. It's not like this is anything new.

There is one service here, different company to Arriva, who do that. At the front of the bus the right-hand side is a wheelchair space and left-hand side is a pushchair space. They're visibly different too, there is a decal marking on the floor to show which space is which, the wheelchair space has a padded back stop, hand rail, and floor to ceiling safety bar whereas the pushchair space is more narrow and has 3-4 flip down seats along one side. If the pushchair space is full and the wheelchair space is empty then you're allowed to use the wheelchair space at the drivers discretion but they always (at least whenever I've been on that bus) pre-warn that you will need to move if someone in a wheelchair needs the space. They also have signs on the bus that say if, for whatever reason, you cannot access the wheelchair space the driver will radio for a free of charge taxi to take you to your destination.

That's very interesting @EwItsAHooman. IMO Arriva are probably breaching their Equality Act duties towards disabled people with that policy.

Whilst they cannot kick people off busses for occupying the wheelchair space, it would be reasonable for Arriva to honour a passenger's ticket on the next bus where they feel they cannot reasonably fold down their pram/pushchair but have proactively to take the next bus.

EwItsAHooman I think we’re talking about the same company

The local bus company here is arriva so that explains it. No forwarding tickets, no space for folded up prams etc. Only choice of buses in my area since they bought out a local company. Interesting that it is in their policies.

Surely some people on a full bus would be within reasonable walking distance of the end of their journeys?
Also, to those people worried they'd be chucked off the bus in a dodgy area, have you thought that if you refuse to get off the bus you're forcing a wheelchair user to sit in that same dodgy area waiting for a bus that will accept them? How are they less vulnerable than you?

I have stagecoach and first and it's the same type of no luggage rack bus. There are actually a lot of wheelchair users on the busses using the space which is good but I personally would never risk it with a pram as I don't want to end up breastfeeding while sat on a pavement in a dodgy area.

Also, to those people worried they'd be chucked off the bus in a dodgy area, have you thought that if you refuse to get off the bus you're forcing a wheelchair user to sit in that same dodgy area waiting for a bus that will accept them? How are they less vulnerable than you?

Who decides who is most vulnerable? Why would or should anyone have to choose between their own safety and that of a strangers?

I live in a rural area, the bus takes you down miles of country lanes through the forest, with no street lights or houses, no internet or phone signal.

I’d like to think I’d do the morally right thing but hand on heart I would have huge reservations about swapping in those circumstances. I don’t think I would.

I’d 100% tell my young teens to stay on the bus, and my 79 year old physically and mentally healthy grandmother.

I have no choice but to get on the bus with the pram if my dh needs the car for work. I can't use a sling for long periods due to a problem with my back. I now make sure that I have enough change on me for if I have to leave the bus. This has not happened to me yet but I have seen it happen to others before I had children. Like I said wheelchair users have the right to the space but the current policy in my area completely disregards the other users if they give up the space like they rightfully should. If buses gave ongoing tickets as standard then I imagine more people would be willing to give up the spaces.