Wheelchair user on the bus

[Penguinpower]

Yesterday I was taking my grandmother (in a wheelchair) to hospital on the bus (London bus) and unfortunately it was rush hour as appointment was 9.10

When the bus turned up it was completely rammed and no way we could get on. The bus driver yelled down the bus that people needed to get off to let the wheelchair on and he would give people a ticket so they could get on another bus for free. Unsurprisingly people did not want to do this, a couple of people did but most people ignored and my grandma was uncomfortable with the situation and told the bus driver not to worry. The next bus that came was also rammed and so I called a taxi.

So this is more of a WWYD but do you think people should get off to let wheelchair on or not? I’m in 2 minds as around 10 people would have to get off to let us on and they could then get on other buses easier. As easier for them to squeeze on. However, they have paid for the bus and as it is rush hour they would most likely be heading to work as no one would choose to be on that busy a bus if they didn’t have to be.

My grandma doesn’t think they should have to get off and I think I probably agree but the bus driver obviously thought they should. So what do you think?

It was an analogy.

I'm not sure you understand the word 'analogy'

All those saying wheelchair users should get a taxi in rush hour obviously don’t realise you can’t get a wheelchair accessible taxi in rush hour as they are all doing the school runs and aren’t available for other wheelchairs until after 10am ish. I can’t remember the last time I was able to get a taxi during term time before 10am

I will be having to get a bus in rush hour on Tuesday in my wheelchair to get to the hospital for day surgery, I have to be there for 8.15am and if I am late I will lose the appointment I have waited 2 years for. I will not be able to get a taxi as none will be available at that time. What do you expect me to do?

If some people continue to be selfish, the wheelchair space will end up being completely sectioned off and then the “first come first serve” (sic) people probably won’t fit on the bus anyway. That would be a shame.

If you are sitting in a seat on the train and further down the the little me the person who reserved it gets on, you move. It's a similar scenario. If one stands in a space for wheel chairs and a wheel chair user gets on the bus they have priority. ( and the interloper should feel uncomfortable and embarrassed if they don' hastily vacate)

StripySocksAlways as a person who has a disability and needs crutches and space, I would expect to move to another seat or get off the bus.

Wow the fucking scum on this thread is shocking.

The conspiracy theorists were right. The country is being dumbed down. Most are on here!

Ffs how is this even still a debate?

My 4 year old knows better than most of you ignorant people! He loves to sit in the "backwards seat" as he calls the wheelchair space but knows full well that if someone gets on who needs it - we move!

Have a look at "taxicard"
It offers 100 journeys a year of very reduced taxi fare in a black cab that have ramps

As many others have said - shouldn't be up to debate.

Apart from anything I think I'd die of embarrassment if I didn't get off for the person to get on - surely you just do it? If late for work I'd call ahead, apologise and let them know why.

It's not ideal but regardless of whatever - morally you should get off for w/c.

I meant if my friend was unable to get on a bus because a person who didn’t need the priority seat was occupying it, would she be justified in expecting that the person unnecessarily using the priority seat should get off the bus to make room for her.

Morally perhaps but legally I don't think so - at least not as the law currently stands. The following is from Lord Toulson's judgment in the Supreme Court's case of Paulley v First Bus. It is technically what's called "obiter" meaning it won't bind lower courts because the judge was commenting on a hypothetical situation where people would have to leave the bus whereas that case involved a woman who refused to fold up her pram and move elsewhere on the bus, but I would expect lower courts are likely to follow it. As you'll see, he didn't even think that people should be forced to leave the bus for a wheelchair user.

"The risk that a bus may be fully occupied when it arrives at a bus stop is one shared by all travellers. The risk may be greater for wheelchair users because there is likely to be only one wheelchair space, but if that space is occupied within the meaning of regulation 12(3) of the Conduct Regulations, I do not see that it would be reasonable to require the occupier to leave the bus midway through their journey. By definition we are talking about someone who is already lawfully on the bus and who cannot “readily and reasonably vacate [the wheelchair space] by moving to another part of the bus.” Moreover the person may also have protected characteristics, such as having a disability requiring the use of a walking frame or being a child. As Lady Hale has demonstrated, 90% of people with disabilities do not use wheelchairs, and the evidence is that over half of those with disabilities have mobility problems, no doubt of varying severity. Age is another protected characteristic, and there would be obvious objections to a policy which entailed telling a child that he or she was required to get off the bus, even more so if it were at an unfamiliar or unsafe location or after dark or for a lengthy or uncertain period of time. Illustrations of passengers with particularly cogent reasons to object to being told that they were required to leave the bus could readily be multiplied. If the law in this difficult and sensitive area becomes the subject of further Parliamentary consideration (to which I refer at the end of this judgment), there would doubtless be considerable argument about striking a fair balance."

It offers 100 journeys a year of very reduced taxi fare in a black cab that have ramps

Are you suggesting this for those who don’t want to get off bus when they are occupying a wheelchair space?

The ramps could be helpful for their dragging knuckles.

Fucking hell. This thread is reminding me that 50% of people are more hard of thinking than the average person. Most of that 50% seem to be on this thread.
All you lot who wouldn't move out of the wheelchair space for a wheelchair user should be thoroughly fucking ashamed of yourselves, selfish bastards.
I'm hiding this thread now as it is seriously depressing.
If I ever see you on a bus behaving like an entitled fuckwit, expect me to call you out on it, loudly and publicly.

I think wheelchair users should have priority.

I live in London and have used buses with a baby in a buggy. Think I once got off. I have seen the same woman who lives near me and has a primary school aged daughter not be allowed to get into the wheelchair space in her disabled scooter thing twice - and it's disgraceful. I did once get off for a wheelchair, and I often had to wait for a bus which didn't have two pushchairs already. I learned how to aim for a bus stop at the beginning of the route in some cases, eg on the way home from the shops.

But the argument about 12 people vs a wheelchair - there's no way 12 people would fit into that space. I don't think you can fit 12 people standing between the wheelchair space, the back doors and the space in between. Maybe 8 with no buggies and bags, perhaps 10 very squished.

Actually often there are people who stand there rather than squeeze to the back of the bus and argue with people who think their bags have priority rights over the seats, and who could actually move albeit with difficulty rather than get off.

I can well believe people are actually even worse on bus routes which serve hospitals - I've seen it not with wheelchairs but with people hogging seats. People need to think there might be more older people and people with hidden disabilities of any age.

New buses near me have a triple seat at the back, often used by one person who sits on the outside leaving others to scramble over. I find it difficult to stand so went to the back and squeezed past someone (feeling annoyed as I did so) and only when I sat down realised she was walking with a crutch. WTF were all the people sitting in priority seats and every other seat nearer the entrance or exit doors thinking? With that mentality it's no wonder people are too selfish to move for wheelchair users.

TFL/bus companies need to consider increasing capacity on some routes, and undoing some cuts - if only this government would fund it. How about some bus conductors who could work with drivers and could say hey move up so seats and standing space can be better used, but also be available and trained to make sure wheelchair users were given space and that ramps and everything worked? More frequent buses and conductors could be prioritised for services which serve hospitals and where there is a additional need other than demand (such as higher levels of disabled passengers).

The question is, who should get off the bus? The people standing in the wheelchair space? What if that results in a child, elderly, pregnant or disabled person having to get off the bus while able bodied adults remain on it? What if that child or whoever has to get off late at night or get off the last bus or in an unfamiliar area? It’s difficult to know who should stay on the bus and who should get off. And the driver can’t drag people off the bus if they refuse. I totally see why people should vacate the wheelchair space but I have no idea how they could police it other than not letting anyone into it in the first place.

Thanks for posting the extract from the Supreme Court judgement. I hadn’t read it before and from the comments I’ve seen here and in the press I thought the judgement was that anyone occupying the wheelchair space would be compelled to vacate it for a wheelchair user, with no exceptions. And...well, rightly or wrongly, it definitely doesn’t say that!

You're welcome. It's actually a really complex judgment compared to most and very frequently misunderstood by people including a lot of lawyers. My best attempt at a summary would be:

• there is a law which says that buses have to have a wheelchair space;

• there is another law which says that wheelchair users should be allowed to get on the bus if the wheelchair space is free. The wheelchair space will however only be free though if passengers (and their luggage) can reasonably be expected to vacate the wheelchair space to move to another part of the bus;

• bus drivers have no legal powers to actually make people move from the wheelchair space (either to another part of the bus or to leave the bus) if they refuse to do so;

• there is a further law which says that service providers have to make "reasonable adjustments" to their services for disabled people (ie take reasonable steps to ensure that disabled people do not suffer from discrimination). The court ultimately decided that the "reasonable adjustment" which the bus companies should make is to put more pressure on people who are in the wheelchair space to make them move to another part of the bus - eg rather than just ask them politely to move they should insist that they move and possibly threaten not to continue the journey until they do so. The bus driver in that case gave up too quickly when the passenger with the pram refused to fold it, he should have pressured her more even though any threats would have in reality been empty (because as above the bus driver cannot kick her off the bus and although he could have refused to drive on, realistically he couldn't have waited all day and so would eventually have to give up and continue if she still refused to move);

• the court said that a Parliament might want to look at this issue again, which I understand they are planning to do shortly.

I'll be curious to see what Parliament comes up with. In the OP's scenario I would definitely get off the bus but I can think of some hypothetical scenarios though where I might be less keen to do so to be brutally honest (eg as a lone female traveller catching the final bus of the night and being asked to get off in an unfamiliar and/or dodgy area a long way from my destination). Practically, I don't personally have to worry about what I would do in that situation because I pretty much exclusively get buses during the day and on routes I am familiar with and on the relatively rare occasions I get a bus late at night I would almost certainly be with my DH, but I suppose Parliament will have to think about all the possible scenarios.

I thought it was a space that seats hadn’t been put in so that wheelchairs or pushchairs could actually fit onto, rather than the zero space that used to be the case with buses - though with wheelchairs having priority over pushchairs where there is competition - and physically accessible from the dropping ramp. Any flip down seats in that space usually do have a notice about being vacated in case of a wheelchair. Are there other notices saying that standing passengers should not be in the space at all or having to vacate if a wheelchair is coming in ? I saw it clear that it applies to standing passengers and not just to pushchairs, because that it where I have seen the disputes.

Before you all jump on me, I, personally, would move or get off to aid access to a wheelchair if I was standing in that space, because I know I can get another bus ( London) without having to cross my fingers that the ramps are actually working ( see that daily ). I don’t think it is realistic to have an empty space in every jammed bus, though, if there isn’t a wheelchair - people filter down from other parts to be in position to get off the bus by the mid door and others get pushed back. People should respect the needs of the wheelchair user but it sounds like it should be more clearly stated that ‘If you stand here, you are required to move if it is needed for a wheelchair ‘

the reason a lot of people wont go upstairs on a DD bus is because once you press the dinger to get off most drivers are too impatient for you to wait for bus to come to a complete stop and expect you to start moving to be ready to get off and start negotiating a narrow curvy steep staircase while the bus is still moving on the shitty neglected potholey roads in this country I never go upstairs on a DD bus

But if i had to move off of my non priority seat to let someone with a walking cane use it or get off bus i would do it.

@elkiedee There are actually legit reasons why some people don't sit on inside seats.

I discovered while pregnant that I couldn't fit my legs into the space that some lower deck including priority seats have.

Another is that some people may actually have illnesses which means they are more likely to vomit. I had this for years and had to sometimes get of public transport quickly to vomit which is much easier if you are on an outside seat especially if you already have some vomit in your mouth.

@PlatypusPie The statement is only for buggy/pram users. I got a dirty look a week ago from a couple of young ladies with large balloons for placing my pram in the wheelchair space. The young ladies simply couldn't sit next to their balloons on the entire empty lower deck but had to stand in the wheelchair space next to me. The bus driver then decided when they rang the bell for their stop, to stop the bus so it was infront of the advertising sign at the stop they wanted ensuring they had great difficulty getting off the bus. Oddly he didn't do it for me or the other passengers who were sitting upstairs when we rang the bell to get off at our stops.

@HelenaDove the bus driver has to wait if the bus if full, so they wait on the routes I take if you are upstairs.

The attitudes in this thread are why disabled people live in poverty at a higher rate than any other group.

Half of people in poverty in the UK are disabled or live in a household with a disabled person.

I live in a city with amazing public transport. The busses go everywhere and they come every few minutes. There is even a bus stop at the end of my road. I can get an unlimited travel pas for £40 a month.

But the buses are full all day round as we see a lot of tourism, so the wheelchair spots are full all day long. I can never get on. So I have to take a taxi. Instead of spending £40 to attend my 14 medical appointments I had to take taxis. Ranging from £6-17. Each way. The total cost for the month came to £294. Just in taxis. Just to attend the medical appointments I need to keep myself alive.

And before I get "But that's what PIP/DLA is for" the majority of it is already taken off me by social services to pay for my care package.

At the end of the month there is nothing left over to go out and be social. I pay 7.5 times as much as an abed bodied person to make a fraction of the journeys that I would like to make, because of the selfish, despicable attitudes in this thread.

I stopped trying to take my son ( who uses a wheelchair out of the house) on public transport years ago. The whinging about moving of prams became to much of a hassle to deal with - followed by the pulling of faces when my son made noises. I would rather push him several miles than attempt the bus.

Anyone who was occupying the space reserved for the wheelchair user should have got off. Wheelchair uses have priority for that space it's a no brainer.