Macron's behaviour is despicable Part two

[Snowymountainsalways]

The thread was closed as it has exceeded 1000 posts.

I have reopened another one in hope that we will be able to discuss with honesty the Salzburg summit, both sides of the brexit debate and with cordiality. This is not a place for venting. Please do that elsewhere. This is a place for polite debate and conversation.

Around dinner tables and on the touch lines we are talking about the future of the brexit deal, if there is a future with the EU or not and what the options are for us now.

I voted to remain, and I am unhappy with the impasse. I had expected and hoped for progress. It did not happen.

Macron descended into name calling, and Tusk posted jokes and photos that are not in the least bit funny about a diabetic person. It was unsettling and disturbing to see how disrespectful they were to our PM TM. So we consider where we are this morning.

Thoughts?

TreaterAnita Thank you I am not going to say it again.

Op no.

I explained my refences to a brexit cabinet and will do so again.

Last year Frank field (labour leave mp) said he didn't feel parliament had any sense of the importance and urgency of brexit

Because its the most momentous thing to happen to us since the war.

Since... The war!!

Because of the size of the the task, rather like the size of the war... He felt like Churchill War cabinet we should have a cross party brexit cabinet.

I don't understand why this wasn't put into action months ago with leavers from all parties working on brexit.
By now we would have had a much more balanced and clear idea of how and what to do.

There is no war, there will be no war.
. Its something that happened during the war to pull the government together to get on with the the war.
We need the same kind of cabinet now to get us through brexit.

autumnwindy Thank you for clarifying it was several hundred posts ago and I couldn't remember the exact details.

Thank you for coming back on here to confirm your views. Some posters have taken a few comments and misconstrued them.

Also, I had an erotic dream about the delicious Macron last night and am now qualified to confirm he is A VERY BAD MAN AND EXTREMELY RUDE

If we had a war cabinet do you think this would have helped secure a deal? Or do you feel that it should be there to support the leaving process?
I don't know the MP you are referring to so I don't know what his reasons are for requesting this

There might not be a war but I predict a riot.....possibly even a revolution.

The UK may not be 'punished' but the nature of ANY agreement with the EU will be that the UK will not get anything BETTER than any other EU member. That is obvious.
if we are lucky and can manage skillful negotiation we might get EQUAL deals with the other EU27.
Shouting off and being the big 'I AM' will not work. Sitting down quietly and whittling away at the many aspects should work but you still have the 'raving loony' (ERG group) stirring up shit and nonsense, thus endangering the whole deal.

For what it's worth, a cross party Brexit cabinet would be a better idea because then we would be less at the mercy of the hard right Tories who only want Brexit so they can make their disaster capitalism wet dreams a reality and fuck us all over in the process.

If you talk to the Spanish, their war finished in 1936.

A cross party brexit cabinet should have been set up from the the start.

We need one ASAP we can't waste anymore time on renainers who don't want brexit.

Frank field is a wondeful mp.

Exactly Ethel.
Cross party would still have disagreements but, we they would be disagreements on the right issues not the wrong issues.

Eg disagreements about how will x affect low paid British workers, let's try z... In the framework of leaving.

Rather than wasting precious time proposing x.. Being shot down by remainers for the sake of it.

Imagine how much better it would all be with a cabinet that included labour mps too. As Ethel said it would balance out the tories and indeed vice versa.
But... All looking in the same direction ultimately on this brexit issue.

That is what government should be doing for all of us.

I agree with you about a cross party cabinet. Not necessarily for the same reasons as you though. I think we'd be a lot clearer one way or the other if that had happened anyway.

Right, but that's not what is going to happen because the people who engineered Brexit and persuaded people to vote for it really don't give a shit about low paid workers or ordinary people in general. Open your eyes. The reason why Brexit is happening is because it gives people like Arron Banks and Jacob Rees Mogg the perfect opportunity to turn the UK into a low tax, low welfare state where the global elite can shelter their assets from tax and poor people who need cancer treatment or free school means for their kids can go fuck themselves.

political theatre is one thing, but lorries unable to get though Dover is quite another

Very true - especially if the French stage another illegal blockade Which brings me to the alleged impossibility of "cherry picking" around at least three of the sainted Four Freedoms

Free movement of goods: See above
Free movement of persons: Various border controls reinstated in response to refugee crises
Free movement of capital: Cases of Commission v Germany and Finland re tax structures

For clarity I'm not suggesting that these should necessarily be cherry picked - merely that EU nations expect to do it all the time and that it's pointless to suggest the UK is unique in this

I wonder if those that are complaining that the EU is "punishing" the UK would be equally affronted if they chose to give up membership of their "members only" club (eg gym or golf club) because it cost too much money and/or they didn't like the restrictions/rules (despite having been on the management committee that set those rules ) and were then told that they were no longer allowed access to said club without paying a fee or abiding by the rules of access.

Exactly, prettybird.

It's quite simple, really.

We will not get a better deal from the EU than we would have if we stayed in, because they cannot give a better deal to a third country than they can to their own members. Therefore, we will have a worse deal vis-a-vis the EU than we did before.

As far as other countries are concerned, we are highly unlikely to get a better trade deal than the EU get, partly because the EU is bigger, more powerful and more important than we are, but also because many of these countries will have clauses in their trade deal with the EU stating that neither can give a third country a better deal in relation to X or Y than they have agreed to give each other. So we will have a worse deal vis-a-vis other countries as well.

There is literally no possible Brexit deal that will be more beneficial to us than remaining. Or even as beneficial as remaining.

@snowymountainsalways
In response to the question; the most viable Brexit option appears to be EEA/EFTA+CU as it limits UK economic impact and addresses the NI border issue. This could be used as a basis for an extended more controlled separation. Canada is a possibility but would seem to necessitate a sea-border for NI and will cause substantial UK economic damage. Remain remains the least damaging option with the highest long-term upside as you already know.

For those interested in the use of the term war in the last thread:
@prettybird correctly cited the first use of the term ‘war’ in the last thread and it was yours (belated but sincere thanks prettybird):

^Snowymountainsalways Fri 21-Sep-18 10:34:26
...
That is a concern. It will end up a tit for a tat, relations with Europe will sink something more akin to war.
...^

The thread goes on to discuss war at other points including your contribution in response to Autumn:

^Snowymountainsalways Fri 21-Sep-18 13:18:44
Autumnwindy

The whole government needs to be put on a war footing

Thank you autumn, this is exactly what I am afraid of. The use of inflammatory language leads to this kind of sentiment. For people like me I am just annoyed that the only deal on the table has stumbled and perhaps expired altogether. For leavers this will no doubt prove how stubborn and difficult the EU are. And for autumn this means war.^

Ironically using exactly the feared inflammatory language and adding to the general sense of belligerence about EU/UK relations. There’s quite a bit of discussion about WWII and the impact of the Syrisn conflict later on - quite a lot of references to war generally given it’s a thread related to Brexit.

Since @Pretty and Ethel have summed it up perfectly and it only took a few minutes to write, I wonder what the UK gov have been up to for over 2 years?

I meant war footing as in... Momentous, need to pull together.

Ethel my eyes have been wide open thanks and I'm with Frank field on this.
You mention on the thread you earned around 50 grand a year?

We have been living on far far far far far far far far less than that.

We have been at a different level of society not open to you on 50 grand.

So I'm very clear on what the many parts of being a member of the eu has done to the poor.
Frank field has many excellent articles, blogs etc on this. Why not give them a read?

There is literally no possible Brexit deal that will be more beneficial to us than remaining. Or even as beneficial as remaining.

That does of course depend on the definition of "us".

It will be more beneficial to disaster capitalists who will be able to make money out of the fire sale of UK assets. Or who have already moved assets assuming the £ will tank. Or to those that want to make money out of selling chlorinated chicken. Or who want to make money out of a privatised NHS. Or those who don't want to be subject to the anti-money laundering rules which come into force in the EU next April (A50 being invoked just before then is not a coincidence ). Or company owners who want to increase their profits on the back of reduced workers' rights/pay/conditions/environmental protections (take your pick of any or all of them ). Or who want to pay less/no tax (so fewer resources available for the Welfare State because anyone who makes use if any part of it is a scrounger )

What they have been up to is faffing around wasting time on reminders who don't want to leave.

But they haven't been doing that! What have they been doing for remainers??

What they have been up to is faffing around wasting time on reminders who don't want to leave.

I thought they'd been wasting time trying to appeased the right wing nut jobs in the Tory party.

We need credible plans that deal with reality not wish lists and harking back to eras that never really existed and we need them very soon.

I wonder how those who feel that exceptions can't be made for non-members feel about the circumstances of Greece's accession? They're regretting it now of course, but on the back of a fraudulent application money was thrown at the nation and then spent in the manner of a drunken sailor

I realise this is a bit different as Greece are now a member, and again I'm not suggesting that rules should be broken. But as with the examples of sheer corruption, let's not pretend that the EU resist when it happens to suit their ever expanding project

a real MN with two children to boot
Does that make a non parent's view invalid?
I have no issues whatever with what Macron said. He told the truth. Good for him.