Macron's behaviour is despicable Part two

[Snowymountainsalways]

The thread was closed as it has exceeded 1000 posts.

I have reopened another one in hope that we will be able to discuss with honesty the Salzburg summit, both sides of the brexit debate and with cordiality. This is not a place for venting. Please do that elsewhere. This is a place for polite debate and conversation.

Around dinner tables and on the touch lines we are talking about the future of the brexit deal, if there is a future with the EU or not and what the options are for us now.

I voted to remain, and I am unhappy with the impasse. I had expected and hoped for progress. It did not happen.

Macron descended into name calling, and Tusk posted jokes and photos that are not in the least bit funny about a diabetic person. It was unsettling and disturbing to see how disrespectful they were to our PM TM. So we consider where we are this morning.

Thoughts?

That was to Surfer. A while back remainerd were accused of crystal ball gazing.

pointythings

I agree. Many of this countries problems are nothing to do with the EU, nothing at all.
But, the ‘people’ made a decision to leave the EU & if we don’t, if they feel they’ve been screwed over by the political elite, they’ll be very very angry. & who would blame them?
Remainers will be seen as scabs who crossed the picket line.

52% of the population is a bloody lot of people you’re taking on.

Hasn't it already been calculated that even if not a single person who voted in 2016 has changed their minds, by January 2019, Remain would win in a re-run, purely on the demographics (the older voters, who statistically voted Leave even though they didn't fight in the War dying, while those who weren't on the register in 2016, turning 18 and having the right to vote - and statistically being more likely to vote Remain)?

And iirc, the really old (who would have fought in the war) were more likely to have voted Remain (but there is such a small number of them left, that they don't affect the statistics).

It's not 52% of the population, it's actually about half that.

Surfer, most people who want to leave the EU want to leave the EU because they are convinced it will improve their lives in some way.

What do you think they are going to do when it does precisely the opposite?

P3onyPenny
Yes, 100% certain.

JM even said it on his web chat here last week.

If Brexit was ever reversed on the basis of a shonky second referendum designed to produce that different result, there will be all hell on. you just have to accept the result of the first referendum as both major parties do. Having referendums until you come out with the “correct” result (for the EU) is a classic from the EUs playbook. This current deliberate effort to sow division in the uk is a threat to our national sovereignty and it is absolutely disgusting. I can’t believe so many people fall for it and owe more allegiance to a foreign undemocratic body like the Eu than their own country. These people are traitors.

Jesus christ are any of you going to answer the bloody question?

You personally can be 100% certain of something without being correct.

I wouldn't take 100% as a probability without a hell of a of facts to back it up, but you brexiters do prefer to rely on the strength of opinion when making decisions that should be made on the strength of evidence

Thanks for your reply, YeOldeTrout. I've been doing a bit of reading and found this quite interesting: yougov.co.uk/about/panel-methodology/

It seems there's an element of self-selection in YouGov surveys, which raises questions of its own. There's also the issue of what questions are asked and how ... so if you ask "what issues are important to you" you'll get one kind of response, whereas if someone's perhaps asked to put a pre-prepared list of "benefits" in order that will obviously bring a different result

I don't pretend to know how this particular survey was conducted, but will say again that it's sometimes wise to treat these things with a certain caution

Finally, it seems an appropriate moment to link this

Ok, 52% of the people who voted. Which means remainers are only 48% of the people who bothered to vote.
52 is still more than 48.
& we don’t know brexit will be a disaster, that’s your opinion coming from a remain POV.
Brexit could end up being the best thing we ever did - what you’re trying to do is stop us finding out.

Surfer, you are still working on the assumption that those leave voters who will be angry if we don't leave will be perfectly happy and not angry if we do.

That assumption is erroneous. Leaving will not address any of their grievances, so whatever happens they will feel they've been fucked over.

Brexit could end up being the best thing we ever did - what you’re trying to do is stop us finding out.

In the same way that I would try to stop a toddler finding out whether sticking their fingers into a live plug socket is as fun as they think it will be. For much the same reason.

Well if JM said so it must be 100% going to happen..

I have accepted we’re leaving, Im not the one moaning about the shit starting to hit the fan. Brexiteers up in arms because what was always going to happen is starting to happen however are. If you can’t cope with Macron calling some UK politicians liars you’ve got a bumpy ride ahead.😂

And again, an answer to my question please.

But by January, demographically those that voted Leave will have dropped just by natural attrition, whereas those that support Remain will be grown, just by virtue of reaching 18.

Do you really want more than half the voting public to be against what is being done supposedly in their name . The young half of the population who will be fit enough to protest actively ....and who have a whole life time of voting ahead of them.

5 year plan do you actually believe the bollocks you're spouting? If you do you've been had.

A traitor for wanting what's best for my country? A traitor for wanting fact and sense to win over uninformed feeling and lies? Fine, I'm a traitor then.

No.
They will feel like their vote was respected. If ; and it’s IF brexit never delivers on its promises then they’ll have to accept that, but what you’re trying to do is pat them on the head in a patronising ‘there there dear, you’ve had your fun now the grown ups are taking over’
How do you think they’ll feel?
You honestly think they’ll forget & go back to worrying about who’s getting kicked out of big brother? ( yes you do I know )

I’m beginning to hope you get your fucking EU back, just to see what shit storm you’ll get in return.

They will feel like their vote was respected. If ; and it’s IF brexit never delivers on its promises then they’ll have to accept that

Right. So we leave the EU, their "vote has been respected", none of the promises made by the leavers are delivered and their lives are made significantly worse and harder as a result.

You think they will just sit back and say, "well I've lost my job and life is even shitter now than it was before but my vote was respected so I'm happy overall"?

Like bollocks they will.

I’m beginning to hope you get your fucking EU back, just to see what shit storm you’ll get in return

What do you think this shit storm in the EU is going to be?

Yes they’ll have to accept it.But sheer economic shit, poorer services, less world standing and isolation(our forces are dwindling as we spend less on them and won’t have the back up of an EU forces) caused by lies is surely going to cause more anger and uprising than a Brexit plan not followed through.

5yearplan has no brain.
As observed there are far right factions all across Europe. There is a massive difference in Europe compared to the UK in that the UK was never occupied (apart from the Channel islands) so only those who were in Europe during WW2 have any real concept of how terrible like was. The countries of Europe will do whatever is necessary to ensure it doesn't happen again.
It is notable that the far right groups in Europe do not wish to leave the EU. They may have quite unpleasant agendas but they want to remain.
As for the EU being 'foreign and undemocratic, what the heck are the elected UK MEPs doing in Brussels then?
OK I admit Farage is usually down the pub, which is why we have some problems, he wasn't doing his job.

OK I admit Farage is usually down the pub, which is why we have some problems, he wasn't doing his job

I’m sure I read he’s been banned from his local - bad for business apparently

I can't be a traitor because I'm not a UK national. I'm one of the 3 million.

pointythings if you’re not a UK National than what you think is totally irrelevant.

The misconceptions about the 'undemocratic' nature of the EU just make me want to bang my head on the nearest wall. MEPs are chosen by proportional representation - arguably more democratic than FPTP. Then the (unelected) commission suggests laws (bit like unelected civil servants in Westminster) and MEPs vote on whether or not to implement them (bit like the HOC in Westminster). If that's undemocratic then the UK is also undemocratic.

Having referendums until you come out with the “correct” result (for the EU) is a classic from the EUs playbook

This old ignorant canard again . If 5 is trying indirectly to refer to the Irish referendum, yes, they voted no initially, so the EU went away and listened and changed the areas that the Irish has concerns with . So on a re-run, the Irish were then prepared to vote Yes. Iirc, Denmark was the same.

The EU being undemocratic has been rebutted so many times With a PR system, there is more chance of getting your voice heard than in our "democratic" FPTP WM Government (although unfortunately it did also lead to the disruptive UKIP MEPs being elected ). As a Scot, I believe we would have far more of a voice in the EU Parliament than Scotland does at the moment in WM - and it would definitely have more of a voice in the European Council, with both a veto and QMV, depending on the issue, than it does in WM where it can be ignored and overuled - if it is listened to at all

Proud to be a traitor. Not only do I want to Remain - I actively want the break up of the UK.

But because I am a nice person, even though a hard/no deal Brexit and the ensuing greater than at the moment clusterfuck would bring that about more quickly, I don't want it to happen that way because of the unacceptable cost to the poorest and most vulnerable in England.