Macron's behaviour is despicable Part two

[Snowymountainsalways]

The thread was closed as it has exceeded 1000 posts.

I have reopened another one in hope that we will be able to discuss with honesty the Salzburg summit, both sides of the brexit debate and with cordiality. This is not a place for venting. Please do that elsewhere. This is a place for polite debate and conversation.

Around dinner tables and on the touch lines we are talking about the future of the brexit deal, if there is a future with the EU or not and what the options are for us now.

I voted to remain, and I am unhappy with the impasse. I had expected and hoped for progress. It did not happen.

Macron descended into name calling, and Tusk posted jokes and photos that are not in the least bit funny about a diabetic person. It was unsettling and disturbing to see how disrespectful they were to our PM TM. So we consider where we are this morning.

Thoughts?

5Yearplan4000

Just under 52% of the people who voted on 23rd June 2016 voted to leave the EU.

That was after a campaign in which we were told the following things:

1. The Norway model and the Swiss model were viable options.
2. We could have our cake and eat it.
3. There would be no significant economic downside to leaving the EU and any adverse effects would only be short term.
4. We would have full access to the single market.
5. We would get back £350m a week to spend on the NHS or anything else we want to spend it on.
6. That the rest of the world was queueing up to give us a better trade deal.

We were not told the following things by leave campaigners (they were said by some remain campaigners but we were told this was just "Project Fear"):

1. That there would need to be a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
2. That supply chains of essential food and medicine would be disrupted.
3. That we would fall out of a whole load of other really important international agreements, having dire consequences for a whole range of sectors such as nuclear, pharmaceutical, haulage and aviation (as things stand, planes WILL NOT be able to take off and land unless something is sorted out in the next six months).
4. That our currency would crash and loads of things would become more expensive as a direct result.

In light of the above, how sure are you that if the same people who voted on that day in 2016 voted again tomorrow, more than 50% would vote leave?

I am not even asking you to speculate on whether people who didn't bother to vote last time, or weren't old enough to vote last time but are now, would vote leave or remain.

I am asking you whether you think you can be absolutely sure that a majority of the people who voted last time would vote leave now, given the things we now know.

And if can't be sure (spoiler: you can't), why do you think this approach to Brexit, which can be summed up as "we need to leave the EU whatever the cost, because it's what the people voted for) is even remotely defensible?

Macron is a darling of MN, ooh look a sexy face french man! It’s like the Trudeau threads. If he was as ugly as sin no one would be bothered.
Meanwhile Macron’s policies have seen his popularity rating at home crater to 29% in the latest poll. Very unpopular now, and the EU project he loves is nearly in the skids. ItY is bust and will crash out before you know it.

You didn’t answer my question.

It’s over, we’re leaving. There will be no second referendum. It’s too late and is politically impossible and just not credible. It’s over. We are out of the EU.

Puzzled, it's a YouGov survey that was published May 2017 (iirc). YouGov stake their rep on representative replies. So whatever methods YouGov usually use. I know big problem nowadays is getting anyone to answer a landline.

Some other yougov data from a few years earlier (survey of everyone, not wrt Brexit decision) suggest that maybe 30% of Remainers would also like return of death penalty, tbf.

Brexit supporters keen pointing out Macron is good looking. That's your obsession.

Now let's deal with some facts...

It’s over, we’re leaving. There will be no second referendum. It’s too late and is politically impossible and just not credible. It’s over. We are out of the EU.

Am I supposed to understand from that reply that you didn't see my question or that you chose not to answer it because your position is indefensible?

So quit moaning re the difficulties/ lies come home to roost which are only the start.

And again you didn’t answer my question.

It’s over, we’re leaving. There will be no second referendum. It’s too late and is politically impossible and just not credible. It’s over. We are out of the EU.

What is over? Do you honestly believe that almost have of the population of the UK of GB and NI are going to just say, 'Fair Cop!'

A week is a long time in politics. This isn't a political matter anyway, even though you have fallen for the politics.

I'm getting so sick of this "you lost, get over it, we are leaving" bollocks.

You "won" a wafer thin majority based on a pack of absolute lies about the supposed benefits of leaving the EU and total non-disclosure of the substantial risks and downsides.

If the people who campaigned for this result can't come up with any ideas about how to achieve it without completely fucking up the country, then they need to accept that they have a responsibility towards every single person in the UK, not just the 51.8% of those who voted (37% of the electorate and 26% of the population) who were daft enough to believe their lies.

Stop fucking banging on about how people voted to end free movement. Campaign for a second referendum specifically on the free movement issue and if you win it, you can have your hard Brexit. Otherwise, shut the fuck up, you idiots.

It's interesting that some Leavers can only come up with 'But you all think Macron is good looking' as a rebuttal of everything the remainers on this thread say... Nothing of substance, no addressing the issues raised, just 'you're a bunch of fangirls'. When many of us have in fact said the opposite. It strikes me that those Leavers are the people obsessed with Macron's looks, not the remainers who are actually addressing what he said.

The cry of 'we're leaving, nothing can stop us now' is beginning to sound a little shrill too.

I don't give a stuff what Macron looks like personally I think Trudeau is better looking

I have however both read and listened to his comments (in both the original French and the various translations) yes, I'm one of those nasty elite people who can speak French - and he neither dissed Theresa May nor insulted her. He did however call out those politicians that did lie and then ran away did not take responsibility for the consequences of their lies. I actually thought he worded it very diplomatically

5Yearplan4000 exactly why is it politically impossible?

You make that statement now back it up.

It's politically impossible because a few hundred thousand leave voters (tops) will cry salty tears of butt hurt.

Apparently.

Tbh, even if we do end up staying the divisions will be so deep I doubt we’ll ever recover.
Plus UKIP will rise again with the obvious ‘look what they’ve done to you, these enemies of the people!’
So if we do end up staying ( & I wouldn’t be shocked if we do ) your ‘victory’ will come at a very high price.
Don’t fool yourselves that all UKIP supporters are over 50 & will be dead soon so who cares.

You can’t think of any way you’ll gain can you 5, you just liked the idea of having a black passport and the right to crooked bananas.

surfer That will happen whether we leave or remain. The difference is that if we remain the leavers will get bored eventually and move on to other things, whereas if we leave the country will be totally fucked for the next few generations and all the people who voted against this or didn't have the vote will be filled with anger at those who so casually threw away our economic prosperity, and a good proportion of those who voted leave will finally realise that they were tricked and lied to, and they will be angry too. So that latter category will be furious either way and can be discounted from the calculations.

To put it another way, we are now in a position where we are damned if we do [leave the EU] and damned of we don't. But significantly more damned if we do. So let's not.

surferjet I agree with you on the divisions in UK society. But it's for the government of the day to address those divisions. Blaming the EU won't achieve anything.

Until the British people make an informed choice about what they want their country to be, nothing will change. Do they want a more equal society with excellent education, health and public services? Or do they want a low tax economy where many will end up at the bottom of the heap? That's the choice, they can't have both. So far no government of either colour has had the balls to admit that this is the choice that has to be faced and until they do, the UK will remain a divided country, torn apart by the poisonous remains of the class system.

I am telling you with 100% certainty that if we don’t leave the far right will rise in epic proportions.
If you feel that’s a price worth paying then good luck.

The far right are rising anyway. Just depends if you want to be stuck on an island of which they're in charge or part of a bigger, more diverse organism with more ability to dilute or even squash it.

The far right will always be with us because there are always people who are racist and xenophobic. Pandering to them at the expense of an entire country is not the way to go. The economic fallout of a cliff edge Brexit will encourage the far right just as much as staying in will.

And with FPTP in the UK it will be interesting to see how the rise of the far right will pan out. I suspect the Tory party will just end up taking on that mantle... Which would be a shame for my many small c conservative friends who have been dismayed to see the direction the Westminster Tories have taken.

Surfer, I am telling you with 100% certainty that if we don't leave half the electorate will be furious, and if we do leave the other half of the electorate will be furious, but if we don't leave the furious half will eventually get smaller and quieter, whereas if we do leave the furious half will get bigger and louder.

The EU is not the issue here. The issue is that people feel their quality of life has got worse, that no one listens to them, and that this is somehow the fault of the EU. What do you think those people are going to do after we have left the EU when what quality of life they do have falls off a fucking cliff and they are still not being listened to? Heat their houses off that warm glow of having left the EU and feed their children nutritious milk made from remainers' tears?

Wow 100% certainty- so you’re allowed your crystal ball.

The far right always exists, in every human society. The issue is how it is managed and contained. To Brexit is to give in to the far right. That is not a clever course of action. The EU was designed as a way to manage and contain the far right after the devastation of WW2. We have collectively failed to remind ourselves of this enough.