Things you should never say in front of childless women

[Clothrabbit]

Just following on from another thread I started, what things have childless women on here had said to or in front of them, or read celebs spouting in public, that really hurt or upset them.

For me:

You don't know what real responsibility is until you have a child.
Having a child makes you less selfish.

absolutely, banana

and leigh, i am so sorry for your loss.

Another semi-linguistic point. ‘Until’ is another insensitive and hurtful part of that sentence. ‘Until you have a child’ suggests that having a child is an inevitability, that it’s something ‘you just do’, that it’s a universal experience. Newsflash: it isn’t. Many, many people will never have a child. Many of those people are childless not by choice. We desperately wanted to have a child. We wanted it to be part of our own lived experience. But life didn’t turn out that way. There simply is no ‘until’ for us.

It also implies, for those of us who will never have a child, that we will forever be emotionally defective. How could we not be if we can never know true love?

I didn’t say the love for your partner wasn’t real - just that it’s not the same.

Yes. We know it's not the same

But the entire sentence being discussed that is so hurtful, is about not knowing true love until you have a child of your own

It's the 'true' bit that is distressing

Of course the love for a partner isn't the same as the love for a child

But to say we can't possibly know TRUE or REAL love without having a child is hurtful

As though our love is a facsimile of love.

It's different. But what's hurtful is when people say it's not real

That's what we're discussing!

Give up Bananafish81 I don't think they give a shit what we think.

To everyone on this thread who is childless not by choice, unlike those who refuse to listen, I would very very much like to listen to you and understand more about how you feel and what you're going through

I'm (trying to) write a book about the emotional experience of infertility and pregnancy loss, and how it feels to be involuntarily childless when you so desperately want to be a mother

The aim is to represent real women's stories and experiences - I've created a questionnaire for people to contribute anonymously, and have been overwhelmed by the number of responses so far (thank you to all the MN-ers who have already contributed - I don't know who you are, but I know a large number of the responses cited MN infertility boards as a key source of support!).

My goal is to represent as many different perspectives as possible: if you’ve experienced infertility or pregnancy loss   ( whether your journey is current or past, successful or not)  I’d be honoured if you’d consider sharing your story anonymously

to everyone who's been or going through this shitty journey.

Public service announcement over :-)

I hope I have never been thoughtless enough to say any of the hurtful and insensitive phrases on this thread to my friends and acquaintances who do not have children, for whatever reason. But reading this thread will hopefully ensure I don't in the future either. I'm so sorry for your losses and struggles.

I am sure there will be lots of people that read this thread and it will make them just think a bit more before saying something that could hugely upset another person, whether they mean to or not.

So even though inevitably people with children have blundered on and made the exact comments the thread was all about, at least one (and I'm sure more) person has read it and resolve to be a bit more self aware in the future.

I haven’t anything else to add but I just wanted to say to @bananafish81, this wasn’t actually a support thread for women struggling with infertility or anything like that. I didn’t ‘barge in’. I actually posted in support of the woman at the beginning of the thread who are child free by choice who had been told they didn’t know love and they weren’t fulfilled etc. I posted to say that not all parents feel that way and that some people just talk nonsense. I posted to say it was ridiculous to suggest that parents have a monopoly on tiredness etc. So I’m not sure why you’re talking about intrusion into ‘safe spaces’ at all as this thread certainly wasn’t like that when I was contributing earlier today. It is difficult to explain the intensity of the emotion involved in parenting and I was trying to convey that those feelings are a double edged sword. They are not more or less valid nor are they more real whatever that’s suppose to mean.

So by all means feel free to say your (valid) piece but if you read the thread from the beginning you’ll see it really wasn’t set out either like a support thread or a safe space and incidentally, when it became clear that it was turning into that, myself and a few others who had contributed ceased to do so. And thank you to those posters on both sides of the discussion who pmd me.

Thank you Leigh and Peanuts. I didn’t mean to make it sound like I had experienced the pain that so many here have had, because I have never even got as far as TTC. I wasted years of my life with the wrong man and only realised how much I wanted children when he finally left me. I very much hope it might still be on the cards one day but it’s hard to believe it ever will.

Most of my friends with kids are pretty tactful and don’t make those kind of comments but I do have a couple who do, and it’s painful. I don’t want to feel jealous of them but I do, so much! I once had a friend who brought her one year old over to my house and immediately started rolling he eyes and complaining about the lack of babyproofing... I’ll babyproof when I actually have a baby, thanks!

As for knowing what love is and all the rest, I remember a thread here where someone was talking about having a second child and worrying that they couldn’t possibly love them as much as their first, because they see how there could possibly be any more love to give. And lots of people were reassuring her that of course she would love her second child (and her third, fourth and all the rest) because love isn’t finite and your heart just sort of expands to make room. That’s how I see it for those of us who don’t have kids... our hearts can still be absolutely full to bursting with love for the people we have in our lives! We don’t have a gaping hole waiting for a particular kind of love to fill it. We are still perfectly complete, loving beings!

help you have indeed - and those comments of support were very much appreciated

You haven't been repeatedly saying the comments that many of us have been saying were so hurtful. Other posters have.

I apologise if you feel that comments have been unfairly directed at you - but as you say, you didn't say the things that have really upset a number of people on this thread

The thread was asking childless women what things people had said that had upset them

Some posters then very pointedly repeated exactly those statements that some PP said were hurtful to them

You did not say these things - others did, and they're the ones who've behaved in an unkind manner

OP: Childless women, what comments do people make that you find hurtful
Childless woman A: I find someone telling me that 'you never know true love until you have a child' hurtful
Childless woman B: I find someone telling me that 'you never know true love until you have a child' hurtful

Childless woman C: I find someone telling me that 'you never know true love until you have a child' hurtful

Some posters on thread who are not childless: Well I DO think 'you never know true love until you have a child' ,because that was the case for ME when I had a child, and I think you're all being professionally offended

You have said repeatedly that in your opinion, the love for a spouse is very different to the love for a child. I don't disagree! Other posters have said the same. You have very clearly said that you don't believe it's a better love, or more true.

Others have!

See also the comments about no one without a child understanding tiredness in the same way as a parent

You have not said this. Others have.

I am sorry if you felt under attack but as you very clearly stated that you thought these comments were rubbish, my disbelief at posters being deliberately unkind was not aimed at you. I had said to you in a previous comment that what was being objected to you was very specifically not what you were saying apologise if this wasn't clear, and that you felt you were being unfairly criticised. My comments were very much levelled at those who had very clearly said hurtful things - not at those like you who had actively criticised these comments. I am sorry if you felt under attack, as that wasn't the intention

this wasn’t actually a support thread for women struggling with infertility or anything like that. I didn’t ‘barge in’.

It isn't a support thread for people suffering from infertility, agreed.

Not all childless people are childless not by choice - some are childfree by choice. And not everyone who is childless not by choice does not have the children they dearly wanted as a result of infertility. Some are childless by circumstance

So by all means feel free to say your (valid) piece but if you read the thread from the beginning you’ll see it really wasn’t set out either like a support thread or a safe space

The OP said
Just following on from another thread I started, what things have childless women on here had said to or in front of them, or read celebs spouting in public, that really hurt or upset them?

It was a thread asking childless women to share comments that had really hurt or upset them. You kindly posted messages in support. But other posters didn't.

When someone has said they're hurt or upset, it isn't kind to come in and tell them they're wrong. Which several posters did do

And there have been countless threads where an OP has specifically asked childless women about things they find hurtful, and lots of people bare personal emotional pain - then for women with children to enter the discussion to say these exact things and argue with the childless women.

You may not have barged in, but others certainly have. It's that lack of basic kindness I find baffling.

So the title of the thread is "Things you should never say in front of a childless woman' and then asks things that have been said to childless women that they find hurtful.

Childless women then respond answering the OPs question. Then women with children pile in saying the childless women are basically wrong for finding comments hurtful. My comment is that all of these people can just fuck off. Who the fuck are you to say what is or isn't hurtful. You haven't walked in our shoes. You are not answering the thread question. So fuck off.

Very eloquently put, banana

I have noticed before how these threads are like catnip for people who simply can't help but put in their two pennorth, despite not having the experience that the OP wants to hear about, and despite it being obviously hurtful to someone already hurting.

No, you weren't childless before you had your children. You hadn't had children yet. It's a different experience not having children in your 20s and not having children in your 40s and 50s, or not having them but not having any reason to suppose you can't. People react differently. The intrusive questions are different. The hurtful assumptions are different.

But that doesn't stop people wading in and telling childless and childfree women about how their experience of being parents gives them insight into how we feel.

It's extraordinary. And exactly highlights the OP's point. It's like that saying that the below the line comments on any article about feminism prove the need for feminism. Threads started for childfree and childless women to talk about their experiences away from happily childed people full to the brim with how wonderful parenthood is, will inevitably be brigaded by parents who just can't help but wax lyrical about how wonderful and transformative parenthood is, or how hard it is but how they have risen heroically to the task

Don't do it. You're the problem that's being highlighted.

And inevitably, people will now take exception to my writing this and take the huff about not being welcome. Crack on.

@furandchandeliers

I personally couldn't love anyone that I haven't given birth to

WOW! so if for some reason you needed a surrogate to carry your biological child, would you not love that one as much as the ones you were able to carry and give birth to,

SophoclesTheFox and banana

Your posts are spot on.

It's as if the intent is to be cruel or to gloat.

It may not have started as a support group but there were clearly posters here who needed support and were struggling yet it didn't stop those who wanted to wade in and tell us all what we were missing. Why would anyone do that to another person? Especially after seeing the previous posts.

The posters who say 'I wouldn't say this or that in real life' are just beyond ignorant. This IS real life for a lot of the women you are talking with. Because my real name isn't actually Peanutss, it doesn't matter what you say? It does matter. And I imagine there were plenty on this thread yesterday who were unnecessarily hurt by comments here.

I just can't fathom why some people are either so blindly stupid they can't see it or they are so cruel that they don't care. It takes nothing to be kind.

Choose your moments to discuss how wonderful you find the experiences of parenting. This thread was not the place.

Shocking how crass some people can be in their comments. Most hurtful for childfree women but when I was single I got similar nonsense from people I barely knew - Helen fielding covered it well in Bridget Jones.

Not as bad but even when you do have children it can continue - I saw one colleague grill another at a work event as to whether she would have a second baby it became obvious she had secondary infertility and really didn't want to discuss it. My mother got it from peers about being a granny before any of us had children. WHY do people even comment on this stuff? It's appalling. Talk about the sodding weather!

Fistbump, peanutss

@Helpmefindaholiday @idontknowwhattohave

"It is more of a tragedy because she left behind 2 small children."

Instead of the usual comparisons of competitive tiredness and competitive unselfishness, we are now in the realms of competitive tragedy.

Can't we just accept that the loss of any human life is tragic, full stop, and leave it at that?

I don't believe someone having kids makes their death more 'tragic', just as if they were well off, respected member of society over someone homeless on the street. I view all lives as of equal importance.

It frustrates me how our media play to this - look at any major disaster for instance, it is always the mothers with children stories who are profiled. The blond blue eyed missing girl over the ethic boy from the inner city.

It bugs me. All lives are equal, all lives are important, and the death of a childless woman, deserves no less coverage, shock, nor grief response that one who happens to have created children.
My view.

Fistbump, peanutss

From me too. Nicely said @Peanutss and @bananafish81 too.

@lisasimpsonssaxophone it doesn't matter that you haven't gone through Fertility treatment, your feelings are perfectly valid.

Off to work in the rain!

Childfree by choice is in many ways the mature and sensible option, which blows thw responsibility nonsense out of the water. I didn't have children out of selflessness - the opposite in fact. It was bloody selfish, I wanted them so I had them. The environment will suffer, I am no longer working as a nurse - which I was bloody good at.

I think my friends, a couple who don't want children, must love each other so very much to get married. I love DH but part of getting married for me was the heteronormative "life plan" - buy house, get married, have kids. I think it's wonderful when people choose one another freely without the consideration, subconscious or otherwise, of "time ticking". Obviously I love DH but... argh I'm probably not explaining it well.

SweetheartNeckline that reminds me of another hurtful thing “you don’t really know your partner/husband until you’ve had children with him’. To which I could reply ”but you don’t know what he would have been like had you not had children”.

Convenient misquote there @Botanica. Completely omitting the fact that I said the loss of her life and the loss to her parents was not greater simply because she had children but that leaving 2 small children made the tragedy far more wide reaching in that it will still shape and affect their life in 40yrs and and if will affect how they go on to parents their own children. An innocent young woman has still lost her life whether she was a mother or not. It’s not seen as ok if that young woman did not have children. It’s not bigger in the sense of one loss being ok and the other not, it’s bigger in the sense of it directly affecting more people on a profound level. Argue my POV by all means but don’t claim I said something I did not.

My goal is to represent as many different perspectives as possible: if you’ve experienced infertility or pregnancy loss  

You might want to consider banana that not all childless women are childless because of infertility or miscarriage/loss. Some of us are in that murky grey area which I call "socially infertile." We're apparently such awful women that no-one has ever wanted to have a child with us.

We can't tell the story of happily married, terribly sad can't conceive or carry. Single and barren because not even the chance to find out whether we're fertile or not.

And when one says something like that IRL, the conversation feels almost worse: "You don't need a husband, you can do it on your own" sort of stuff. It's really not that simple (like being recommended to adopt). And you know that the other person is judging you for being the kind of person who can't even find a partner to father a child.

There's very little language for this sort of situation. And it's almost too painful to talk about IRL - feels like personal failure all round.

Seren quite... Every life choice and circumstance shapes us in far reaching ways but no-one would say "You don't know your husband until you've lived overseas together", "It's not true love until youve gained your pilot licence together" or "You don't really know your wife until they've supported you through a bereavement". It's a shame that children is still commented on in such a deeply personal way.

Obviously to say "I didn't really know DH until we had the kids" (or either of the other sentences above) is slightly different but to generalise is stupid.

@SweetheartNeckline quite.

It's sweeping generalisation like that which romanticizes having children with someone.

It's left me in the past feeling like my DPs ex must have meant more to him or they must have more of a connection than him and I.

He tells me it's not true, he was young, they had children. He cares in the sense that he wants her to be able to look after their children but aside from that the love he has for me is far deeper than they ever shared. Logically I can see his point, plenty of people have children with those they don't ultimately end up with but it's still something which plays on my mind especially with the daunting prospect that we may never share it together.

I spent my early childhood abroad. We knew a lot of English women who were doing teaching, voluntary or charity work, often in very remote areas and experiencing quite a lot of danger and hardship. Some were nuns, most were not. It made me associate child free women with adventure and some pretty amazing values and social contribution. My father was taught by women like that at his first school. I am glad of that association: it is a good antidote to the horrid stereotypes floating around.

It made me associate child free women with adventure and some pretty amazing values and social contribution.

That’s a pretty hard expectation for women without children to live up to. Most of us just want a normal life without feeling like we’re supposed to be saving the world.