To be slightly fed up of white people doing this

[TacoLover]

Every time there is a thread discussing racism, there will be a mention of white privilege. Cue a flurry of hurt posters writing essays about how stupid the idea of white privilege is and how it doesn't exist, because their lives are so hard and they grew up on a few pieces of bread and a Red Bull

This really gets on my tits because after seeing this shit time and time again, THIS ISN'T WHAT WHITE PRIVILEGE MEANS. It doesn't mean your life isn't hard, it doesn't mean you don't face barriers in your life. What it does mean is the barriers in your life will never or hardly ever be a result of the colour of your skin. It doesn't mean you live in a mansion because you're white.

Just needed to get that out,sorry. I'm sure my only replies will be white people telling me how racist I am for only targeting them(Even though this is something that only white people do)

I'm with bigbean. Of course white privilege exists and results in major social injustices. I can imagine how annoying and denigrating denials must be. I also think that anyone in a position of power (so I've done a lot of personnel recruitment say - which I'd count as power) really should know, reflect upon and attempt to mitigate with their best efforts how white privilege affects their practice.

However, structural disadvantage is not grasped by everyone and many people think locally about their own experience, often because they really are disadvantaged compared to many others. Some of the 'deniers' of structural inequality are privileged, educated, rich, young, able-bodied white males who many of us have good cause to want to take a pot shot at, but some really are people who have had a very raw deal which doesn't make it right but does make it understandable. So I think I'm saying, it's a bigger shittiness not to be aware of white privilege for some people than others.

Crazyhead out of interest, how would you mitigate 'white privilege' in your position as a recruiter?

I'm white and I see it.

Stop and search...ok, so the police may stop a few young black boys and find a small amount of cannabis then use this as a justification for stop and search. Why don't they go to the city on a Friday night after 6pm and stop and search some of the hooray henrys pouring out of the offices into bars...I'm sure you'll find plenty with cocaine on them! Or go into the expensive nightclubs and search the wealthy young white kids?

I get it too. I totally understand it and doing my bit to address it whenever I can.

Especially when they are supposed to correct that injustice by simply imposing a different injustice on someone else?

The point is that it's not a different injustice, it's justice or fairness being applied.

Of course, it doesn't make sense and it's unfair if the benefited person has just coasted along in the understanding that they're given the benefit anyway.

But, how do you correct for all those white boys who got in to start with just for being white?

What is the solution to white privilege?

Which is a different topic to recognising its existence.

The fact that there are minority schemes doesn't deny white privilege. They exist because of it.

@DunesOfSand

What an amazing video. Food for thought.

Will be making sure my (white) sons watch that.

Thank you

I agree with you, OP.

The point is that it's not a different injustice, it's justice or fairness being applied

This is the nub of the issue Lweji, it is a different injustice. Its stopping someone taking a job in order to correct for a hypothetical fault that may or may not have been perpetrated by someone else who happens to be the same colour as them.

If a white person applies for a 'fast track' scheme, and is turned down in favour of a lower qualified BAME person (I have seen this happen, and had it offered to me!) on the grounds of rebalancing 'white privilege', then that person has suffered a personal injustice on the basis of their skin colour. Please can you describe to me how:

1. That is not injustice against the individual?

1. That is not a racist policy?

1. That is not injustice against the individual?

It may be. I suspect, though, that the same white person may well have been recruited to start with ahead of other black people whose CVs weren't properly considered, for example, and this is just one aspect in which the white person may have benefited from being white.
But that injustice is hidden, not open and clear.
That is the problem with white privilege. It's insidious. Not obvious.

1. That is not a racist policy?

No. It's racist when benefits are given to groups that already benefit in general.

What is the solution to white privilege?

That's an interesting point Lweji but I'd rephrase it to be 'what is the solution to black underrepresentation'

Well I have a few ideas and they all start with education and cultural adjustment. I'm sorry to say this but the basic culture of many young black men is fundamentally flawed. many years ago I joined the Army and got out of that environment, I was unusual for doing so.

I haven't seen the exact statistics but something like 70% of black boys are born in single parent families. This is seen as normal and acceptable. It really shouldn't be. Children with two parents are statistically far more likely to succeed than those with one for numerous, obvious reasons.

Black communities are often in the lower socio-economic band of society. This is common for all non majority races within any nation, however other groups (asian/indian etc) have managed to lift themselves out of the bottom and raise themselves up the economic and social scale within a couple of generations. Many black communities have failed to do this. Gang culture and the lack of value placed on education are huge factors in this.

Black children raised in non-black communities have far better outcomes than those raised in black areas. That sounds like something a racist would say, but unfortunately its an uncomfortable fact. This is the reason why Diane Abbot (who I actually rather respect) sent her children to a fee paying school, because she wanted them away from the toxic influence of gang culture and the poverty of low expectation.

Our communities needs to take a long hard look at themselves. Stop pointing fingers at everyone but ourselves.

I have name dropped Remi Adekoya a number of times in this thread, he has a lot to say on this exact point. I would encourage you to google him.

It may be. I suspect, though, that the same white person may well have been recruited to start with ahead of other black people whose CVs weren't properly considered, for example, and this is just one aspect in which the white person may have benefited from being white

But again Lweji when I challenge you, the best you can produce is 'you suspect' that injustice has taken place. I'm afraid that's not good enough.

The practical outcome of the policies you are espousing is that individuals are being deliberately, negatively affected based on their race. That is racist.

Black children raised in non-black communities have far better outcomes than those raised in black areas. That sounds like something a racist would say, but unfortunately its an uncomfortable fact.

That's not uncomfortable, nor seemingly racist.
Quite the opposite.
It shows that black children are perfectly capable of achieving, but are hindered by the environment they grow up in.
Black areas are also deprived, which means that leveling up without real prompts will take a very long time, if ever achieved, because the community is stuck in a rut of poverty and underachievement.

Sure, the communities need to look at themselves, and I've mentioned differences between different minority communities.
But, the white community, or, if you want the wider community, also bears responsibility for their own behaviour in pushing those communities to lower paid jobs and keeping them from an equal footing.

I'm sure there isn't one solution. And I'm sure nobody thinks that fast-track schemes are the only way. Or even the best. They're one measure. Not the measure.

Black communities are often in the lower socio-economic band of society. This is common for all non majority races within any nation, however other groups (asian/indian etc) have managed to lift themselves out of the bottom and raise themselves up the economic and social scale within a couple of generations. Many black communities have failed to do this. Gang culture and the lack of value placed on education are huge factors in this

Well I took my mixed race baby boy to a baby group once...a white woman called him a gangster despite the fact his parents are educated professional people who've never been involved in criminal activity... explain that to me.

You have a point OP. But also think that it is sociably acceptable for ethnic groups to talk negatively about white people' s views, but not the other way around. White people are treading on egg shells when it comes to even mentioning other ethnic groups.

For instance, if there was a thread titled.... 'to be slightly fed up of black people doing this...' (and you can insert other ethnic groups into that sentence), then people would go mad.

And before I get shot down, I have no desire to!! (See, egg shells...)

Perhaps other ethnicities need to think about how they word things too.

But again Lweji when I challenge you, the best you can produce is 'you suspect' that injustice has taken place. I'm afraid that's not good enough.

That has to be a case by case analysis, as I've said. The schemes are leveling playing fields, not looking at individual cases.

The practical outcome of the policies you are espousing is that individuals are being deliberately, negatively affected based on their race. That is racist.
It's not racist because it doesn't intend to negatively affect people. It intends to level the playing field. It intends to give equal opportunities in a society where these don't really exist.

Nobody is saying screw white people. They're saying that black people have been disadvantaged and they need a platform to reach fairness.

I've posted this recently and can't believe I have to post it again on MN within a week or so.

For instance, if there was a thread titled.... 'to be slightly fed up of black people doing this...' (and you can insert other ethnic groups into that sentence), then people would go mad

Bless you ..you think you're so clever coming up with this argument don't you? It's the same as people who argue that men can be victims of domestic violence as well as women. Look at it in relation to the society we live in.

Lots of people have mentioned stop and search and that is the tip of the iceberg. Serious but still the tip.

White privilege is being unaware of and never having to deal with what a black/ bame deals with on a daily basis throughout their life.

The daily tone of voice change, the daily assumptions, the daily micro aggressions, the daily othering. In some areas this may happen more or may happen less but it is there and it is daily as the person is black or bame daily.

The daily changes in the behaviour of those around you from the person on the till in a shop, the security guard, the drs receptionist or the teacher at your child's school. Sometimes it's little things, other times it's glaring and big and in your face but it all forms a picture of injustice.

Ie the bags searches at a place like legoland, the bame person waits in the queue watching whilst the 5 white families in front are searched very quickly, often with only a cursory glance at the bag and get let in very quickly. It's now their turn and their bag is thoroughly searched, even their children. The 5 white families children were not looked at, let alone given a cursory search.

The 5 families in front benefited from white privilege but they will not know it or realise it or understand it unless they were told and unless they came to understand and accept the daily experiences of bame persons.

All those who say what about male or class privilege are derailing. They absolutely do exist but a poor working class person has to face the injustices of being working class and poor and of being black. The white working class person has to face the injustices of being poor and working class only.

If you are female and poor and disabled then yes your life is hard.
If you are female and poor and disabled and black then you also face white privilege very day as you are black every day.

I really can't see why people can't get their head around this or do some reading about it and listen to bame persons and their experiences . White people need to stop the denial, its on par with holocaust denials.
It is historical, structural, institutional and individual injustice.

The university where I work has examined the a level grades and then final degree classifications as well as individual module grades of white students bs BME students. White students are far more likely to come out with better marks and a final better grade. I can’t remember the difference but it was enough to make me really think it was bad.

So one of two things.....either as an overall group the BME students once they get to uni don’t work as hard as the white students - very unlikely. Or there’s unconscious bias or even possibly non unconscious bias on the part of the lecturers marking the assignments. That’s white privilege. The white students statistically have an easier time then the non white students. We’ve moved onto blind marking now, so only student numbers not names. But to be honest in fairly small cohort it doesn’t work as I recognise their numbers and if you run an assignment through turnitin prior to marking it doesn’t work because turnitin has the students name on the software.

YANBU, I'd never say that. White privilage definitely unfortunately still exists.

Not the SAME privilage but I had a ridiculous argument with someone I know who said people didn't face discrimination because of being gay, because he's had work issues and had hard times and been bullied at school and family problems, and he's straight!

I responded the same as what your OP says, albeit a different issue

'None of these problems were BECAUSE you were straight!'

Oh I did my dissertation on racism in the criminal justice system.

A black or Asian person is more likely to be stopped by the police (especially a black person), they’re more likely to be arrested for the same minor crime/misdemeanour, they’re more likely to be charged, they’re more likely to be held on remand while awaiting trial, they’re more likely to get a custodial sentence. It’s a really significant culminative effect on the outcome.

Again Lweji, even if everything you are saying is true (and you know I object to a lot of it) how is the workplace of a black person responsible for the discrimination they may or may not have experienced in their life up to that point?

Laughingtreeknight, workplaces (and economies) do better when they have a broad pool of talent to draw from. It's of benefit to workplaces, not a cost, for them to be able to consider equally able candidates who - for reasons outside of their control, such as structural racism - haven't got the same qualifications or the same experience as some white applicants. It's not the workplace suffering for a good cause, it's a workplace availing themselves of the best possible candidates out of a wider pool, which benefits everyone. (Except possibly the mediocre candidates who previously had an easy ride because there was a smaller pool to draw from.)

A white working class boy or girl growing up on a council estate in Sunderland would have significantly brighter future than a black working class boy or girl growing up on a council estate in Sunderland.

I'm not sure this is true? A white child will likely have come from generations of under achievement and disadvantage. This, I think, is less likely to be true of the black child. I remember reading that poor Chinese children out perform at school all other groups, including rich white children. The only group doing better than them are rich Chinese children. And bottom of the school performance table was white working class boys.

I'm not saying white privilege doesn't exist, I can see it does, but I think poverty (class) is a greater disadvantage than all the others.

I totally agree with you OP. Reading this has made me realise that I've recently had to explain white privilege, how blackface and white face aren't comparable, why Black Lives Matter is important and apartheid. To grown adults. Who were either stupid or thought I would go along with their racism.
I'm white from 'The colonies' if I talk about its history English people get their backs up and I have to explain to them that its not attacking them, its not personal and it's my heritage too .

A white child will likely have come from generations of under achievement and disadvantage. This, I think, is less likely to be true of the black child. I remember reading that poor Chinese children out perform at school all other groups, including rich white children.

First of all a Chinese child isn’t black. And I am nit actually sure that a Chinese child has the same disadvantage than a black child. Even though there is white privilege overal, I also think we treat different races in different ways too (aka we associate different assumptions to different races)
Second a black child is more likely to come from a very disadvanatage background, going back to either deep poverty (which might or might not be roote din slavery in the first place). You cant ignore that Fact in history because it still has a massive bearing on how we (as white people) see black people. And how they ‘fit’ within our society.
And then Chinese people have an attitude to learning that is VERY different than the British one. The difference you are talking about is about culture. Not about how races are treated. The Chinese child might well do well DESPITE the subconscious racism.