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AIBU?

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

To be a little disappointed that Jesus is being taught as fact in Y1?

366 replies

PoxAlert · 18/09/2018 12:36

We're atheists, so therefore didn't consider any faith schools for our DD.

We want her to learn about all cultures and religions and be tolerant of them all. We have friends of many faiths and beliefs and just want to be kind and happy.

Of course I expect (and welcome) Christianity to be taught in school, but we just got a copy of this term's curriculum (DD just started Y1) and for a non-faith school it seems a bit much.

Or am I being unrealistic and the school and church will always be linked?

Some of the RE points are:

"To learn who Jesus was" "who were his friends" "what did he do?"

I guess I was expecting a "what do Christians believe?" "why do they celebrate Christmas" etc etc than what seems to be a fact based history lesson....

Either way I'm not going to kick up a fuss with school, it's not a big deal really, she's free to make her own decisions in life. Just surprised me a little.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 19/09/2018 20:29

"Teaching religions in school is simply presenting information including what’s a possible fact and what’s a belief"

That's how it should be. Sadly it frequently isn't.

And there are no secular state schools in the U.K.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 19/09/2018 23:21

A number of historical events pint to Jesus existing. Whether he was just a bloke who didn’t do much at all is another matter.

Which ones would they be? Creation 6000 years ago? A talking snake? The parting of the red sea? A genocidal flood? Turing water into wine? Magicking up food for 5000 people? Mathew, Mark, Luke & John (who are they?), 9/11?

CardinalSin · 20/09/2018 08:48

"A number of historical events pint to Jesus existing."

I too would be interested to hear what those are. Christians are often so keen to make these blanket statements, but then can't back them up. I'm sure I've read something somewhere about "not bearing false witness"...

BertrandRussell · 20/09/2018 12:03

Incidentally, can someone please point out the Christian bashing and scorn on this thread?

MissConductUS · 20/09/2018 12:37

Incidentally, can someone please point out the Christian bashing and scorn on this thread?

Well, there was the post that was deleted by MNHQ for violating the talk guidelines.

BertrandRussell · 20/09/2018 12:49

So one post. Swiftly deleted. Was that it?

MissConductUS · 20/09/2018 13:21

It made an insulting and inflammatory reference to another poster.

BertrandRussell · 20/09/2018 13:26

And was rightly swiftly deleted. Seriously-one post? That is the Christian bashing and scorn?

havingabadhairday · 20/09/2018 13:34

I don't think it's unreasonable to object. I was particularly annoyed at them teaching the resurrection as fact when I'd not long explained that death is final (we lost a pet, it was a very difficult time for DS as he struggled to get his head round the idea of dying). I had a very confused child and was forced to tell him it was just a story when I'd have preferred to stay neutral.

MissConductUS · 20/09/2018 13:34

I never asserted that there was Christian bashing.

BertrandRussell · 20/09/2018 13:38

"I never asserted that there was Christian bashing."

Sorry- I thought you were supporting the people that did-I misunderstood.

Yabbers · 20/09/2018 13:40

Big bug bear of mine. Our school invites the local church man (priest/vicar/whatever he is) in to talk to the children. They dress it up as simply teaching moralistic behaviour but it’s all about Jesus and what he said, did etc. It’s not so much what they teach that bothers me, it’s that no other group has such unfettered access to school on a regular basis. Try going to your local school and suggesting once a month you go in to talk to them about anything. Look forward to being laughed off the campus.

We’ve been clear with DD what we believe and what others in our family believe and it is up to her which way she wants to take it. She did believe, now she doesn’t, she might again in the future.

Just a thought OP but they also teach Santa as fact. And the tooth fairy. In P1 DD’s class had a friendly dragon which visited them overnight and left messages for them. As with those things, children will come to their own conclusions over time, especially where parents aren’t reinforcing school teachings.

MissConductUS · 20/09/2018 13:51

In the US the line between church and state is much clearer and more easily enforced when it is violated. State funded schools are not allowed to teach about religious topics in a way that could be interpreted as proselytizing. It's never happened with me or my kids. It still manages to get into the courts on a regular basis, regarding issues like the teaching of evolution.

There are still church state interactions. Religious schools still receive state services like police and fire protection. The was a court case a few years ago regarding a religious private school that applied for state funding for playground safety upgrades that were available to public and non religious privates schools but not to them. They won that case, as I think they should have.

Sixgeese · 20/09/2018 13:59

I can't be bothered to read any more of this pro or against Jesus argument.

My D.C. go to a local C of E school and I help on school trips and go in to help with art if needed.

I have been on trips to the local C of E church where the Vicar talked to the children about his church and what they believed, the local URC church when the Minster explained about their church and the local Evangelical church where the Pastor explained about their church, this was Y4 trip learning about alternative Christian denominations.

Y3 I have helped with Art work around Hinduism and later in the year when they were learning about Islam we went to visit a mosque and learnt about what they believed from the Iman.

The school also visits a Temple and a Tabernacle in other years as they learn about other religions and they get the opportunity to ask questions from the religious leaders.

It is all part of the National Curriculum.

dottypotter · 20/09/2018 14:00

There is no proof that jesus etc existed its based on ancient hearsay. Therefore it shouldnt be taught.

prh47bridge · 20/09/2018 15:08

There is no proof that jesus etc existed its based on ancient hearsay. Therefore it shouldnt be taught

So you think that scholars of the period who believe it is effectively certain that Jesus existed and that his baptism and crucifixion are genuine historical events should be ignored. Note that these scholars are of all faiths and none. This is not a case of Christian scholars pushing their religious views. I'm sorry but I trust those who specialise in study of the history of the area a lot more than internet randoms who promulgate the Christ myth theory - a theory which gets virtually no academic support.

Just to say again, saying that Jesus existed is not the same as saying the biblical account of his life is correct. If a school started teaching that the miracles or the resurrection really happened that is definitely overstepping the line. Those should be treated as matters of faith. But saying he was a real person simply reflects the academic consensus so, in my view, is perfectly reasonable.

CardinalSin · 20/09/2018 15:59

Yes, sorry that I called the flouncer (who was complaining of the "bashing") a snowflake. Hardly the most heinous of insults, but I shouldn't have risen.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/09/2018 16:57

For the poster requesting evidence of 'Christian Bashing'. I wouldn't call it 'Christian Bashing' per se but the tone and language used in some posts could be offensive to deeply held beliefs

For example:
Bringing up children in your faith-

"I think is is very disgusting that any child is brainwashed into loving and obeying without question a powerful religious figure whom they have never met. And we wonder why so many priests get away with abusing children'

"My opinion is that the indoctrination of children into a religion against their will (an infant cannot consent) is one of the great crimes of our time."

Beliefs being scoffed at:
"They’re all bollocks."

"It's quite easy to see how people come to believe that rubbish. "

"Sky fairies"

"So much stupid - very desperate'

"Extreme brainwashing."

I absolutely believe that people should have their opinion and be able to express it in a safe way. Wth this comes the responsibility of being respectful. I wouldn't go up to an atheist and mock their lack of beliefs as narrow-minded and stupid. I wouldn't go to a woman wearing a burka and call her beliefs 'brainwashing'.

As a general rule, people need to think before they post and consider the language used.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 20/09/2018 17:54

So you think that scholars of the period who believe it is effectively certain that Jesus existed and that his baptism and crucifixion are genuine historical events should be ignored.
I accept there are historians who believe Jesus the man existed but their are equally historians who believe the opposite. Where is the consensus?
I would expect almost all historians to agree before we could decide one way or the other. Just like almost all scientists agree climate change is real.

BertrandRussell · 20/09/2018 17:56

"So you think that scholars of the period who believe it is effectively certain that Jesus existed and that his baptism and crucifixion are genuine historical events should be ignored"
No. But I don't think the ones who think they aren'tgenuine historical events should be ignored either. We don't know.

BertrandRussell · 20/09/2018 18:03

Thank you @WhatisFreddoingnow- that's just the sort of thing I was asking about. I agree that some are a bit rude- the "it's all bollocks" sort of remark for example- although they seem to be religion bashing rather than Christian bashing! But it all seems pretty mild stuff- and your first two examples are surely just strongly expressed opinion?

I do sometimes wonder whether Christians in this country are so used to occupying a privileged position that the normal rough and tumble of discussion feels like "bashing"? I certainly don't feel that religion of any sort deserves any more respect than any other opinion.

WrongOnTInternet · 20/09/2018 18:04

The trouble is WhatisFreddoingnow (lovely username btw), my deeply held beliefs are that the Christian religion has no basis in fact, has no merit therefore, is destructive, warmongering and misogynist, and is also currently being aggressively pushed as a means of social control as it has been in the past. While I do usually try to keep within limits, those who assert that we should not question belief will cause direct conflict and sometimes that has to be assertively stated to stand any chance of being listened to in Britain nowadays.

SleightOfMind · 20/09/2018 21:39

Sorry, paywall and it’s a bit long to C&P.
It does a good job of pointing out how flimsy the evidence is and that nothing else would be thought factual on such slim, biased and adulterated material.