To be a little disappointed that Jesus is being taught as fact in Y1?

[PoxAlert]

We're atheists, so therefore didn't consider any faith schools for our DD.

We want her to learn about all cultures and religions and be tolerant of them all. We have friends of many faiths and beliefs and just want to be kind and happy.

Of course I expect (and welcome) Christianity to be taught in school, but we just got a copy of this term's curriculum (DD just started Y1) and for a non-faith school it seems a bit much.

Or am I being unrealistic and the school and church will always be linked?

Some of the RE points are:

"To learn who Jesus was" "who were his friends" "what did he do?"

I guess I was expecting a "what do Christians believe?" "why do they celebrate Christmas" etc etc than what seems to be a fact based history lesson....

Either way I'm not going to kick up a fuss with school, it's not a big deal really, she's free to make her own decisions in life. Just surprised me a little.

Actually, there are quite a lot of records surviving from that time and region. That's why it's all the more remarkable that not a single one of them mentions this Jesus character who was supposed to be causing all kinds of rumpus!
There are plenty of works by classical authors that reference different events depicted in the Bible, and the existence of & attitudes towards Christianity.
A book written by men who lived after Jesus actually died.
The 4 Gospels were written by the disciples who were with Jesus before his death and who carried on his work afterwards.

There is another layer: an appreciation of christianity is necessary for an understanding of Western Culture. And you can't know about the importance of christianity, and how it shaped western civilisation without the name of Jesus coming up.

A child with a grounding in christianity is at an advantage when confronted with and trying to understand his/her own landscape, history, early architecture, music, plays, art, artefacts, literature and so on.

For instance, the symbol of the cross is ubiquitous. You don't have to believe in the cruxifiction, or its association with Jesus, to recognise it.

A child can go through life without seeing it, or wondering about it, and no harm will be done, but I would argue that they are missing out. A child who can recognise the symbols, or the stories depicted in a medieval painting, or the face on an illuminated manuscript, is one step ahead. They are able to make links, for themselves.

I completely agree that children should have an appreciation of other religions and cultures.

Can somebody please give me an example of the "Christian bashing" on this thread? This is a genuine question- I see one post has been deleted and obviously I don't know what it said- but I really don't see anything else report or delete worthy. Please can someone (someone who thinks it is report or delete worthy) explain?

Oh dear *@RangeRider@

"The 4 Gospels were written by the disciples who were with Jesus before his death and who carried on his work afterwards." - Even Christian theologians don't claim this! It is well known that they were written many decades after the Jesus character's supposed death, and not by the people whose names have been attributed to them.

As for "There are plenty of works by classical authors that reference different events depicted in the Bible" - well, yes, because nobody is disputing that the bible exists! Are you trying to claim that because some writers have read the bible that somehow proves that the Jesus character existed? Weird.

Anyone? Is saying that it is not absolutely certain that Jesus is a historical figure "Christian bashing"? Is saying that you don't think that religion-as a practice, not as an academic study- has no place in schools "Christian bashing"?

As for "There are plenty of works by classical authors that reference different events depicted in the Bible" - well, yes, because nobody is disputing that the bible exists! Are you trying to claim that because some writers have read the bible that somehow proves that the Jesus character existed? Weird.
I didn't say anything about classical writers having 'read' the Bible, I said they referenced events that were mentioned in the Bible e.g. Herod, opposition to Christianity etc. These writers were talking about events happening at the time and shortly after, not something they'd read in the Bible.
Do try not to be rude.

"These writers were talking about events happening at the time and shortly after,"

Which writers are you talking about?

"I said they referenced events that were mentioned in the Bible e.g. Herod, opposition to Christianity etc."

So, let me get this right. Because the bible, written as it was decades after the events it is claiming to describe, included some events that had actually happened, as corroborated by other sources, therefore everything included in the bible must have happened?

Just trying to penetrate your logic.

I would love to see any proof that Jesus was a real person. There is literally zero secular evidence of his existence and the religious sources that mention him were all written after he supposedly died. Even the gospels contradict each other and the eyewitness accounts they describe are second hand. There is a growing body of evidence that the Jesus story and related symbolism was borrowed from earlier pagan religions.

The relevant point however, is that in a secular and potentially mixed faith school the teachers should not be presenting Jesus as a real person. I’d be annoyed if my child came home from school with that idea in their heads and would approach the school to correct their mistake.

Absolutely everyone, is entitled to believe what they believe and that should be respected. Yes, Christianity is the basis for a lot of western culture a lot of its good, but indeed a lot of bad. But just because some people don't believe that Jesus Christ was an actual historical figure, does not mean that they and society are going hell.

Some one up thread said that look at whats happening to society now. Apparently, we are losing religion, that we have failing schools, kids are violent, they have no respect for authority etc. What, so you need to have religion to have a moral compass?? Without a religion to tell you what to do, how to behave, you are incapable of becoming a decent human being?

Look at historically staunch Catholic nations like Poland and Ireland, for example, where for so long the Church informed society's moral and cultural codes, and more. As it transpires, how many injustices and curtailment of freedoms have been perpetuated against many people in the name of religion, threatening them with eternal damnation if they don't comply?

My point is that you are not a morally bunkrupt thug, who is going straight to hell, if you don't believe, in Jesus, or Christianity or what ever religion. Religion categorically does not have the monopoly over humanity and core basic human values such as goodness, kindness and compassion. You have shockingly bad human beings who are atheists, but you also have shockingly bad very religious individuals. And the other way round as well.

As a former Catholic who's left the club, I have made my own informed decisions regarding belief, and encourage my young children to do the same, That it's important to learn, as objectively as possible, about different belief systems and what they mean, but not teach subjective interpretations as "fact". Which is how I grew up, and was never really encouraged to question the bible and its interpretations by the clergy.

fairshare

....but it’s slowly and deliberately being eroded. The evidence for that is what we have now in our schools. Failing schools, out of control violent children, shortage of teachers, a general lack of respect for authority in our kids etc etc.

Are you implying all these issues are due to the decline in popularity of Christianity? What a bizarre conclusion! There are many complex reasons for these issues. The (understandable) decline in people believing the stories of Christianity isn't one of them!

myusernameisnotmyusername

I'm not religious but I believe Jesus existed as a person. I think people saw him as some kind of amazing figure and it got taken out of context via the Bible.

I feel the same. I think he was probably a very charismatic passionate person who inspired people. I don't for a second believe he walked on water or performed one of the many miracles that are attributed to him.

It's also possible Derren Brown type trickery was in existence even back then. So you could easily have convinced people water turned into wine if you really wanted to, and they were stupid enough to believe it.

I think if the consensus amongst historians is that Jesus was a real person (is it the general consensus?) then he should be taught as fact, with the son of God bit as 'some people believe'...

Then 'was Jesus real?' could be taught later when children start assessing historical sources (beginnings of secondary school?)

“I think if the consensus amongst historians is that Jesus was a real person (is it the general consensus?) then he should be taught as fact”

Why?

“t's also possible Derren Brown type trickery was in existence even back then. So you could easily have convinced people water turned into wine if you really wanted to, and they were stupid enough to believe it.”

You wouldn’t have to be stupid.........

There is no general consensus that Jesus was a real person. I have no issue with people believing what they want to believe, whatever makes them feel happy and helps them to cope with life. But I do have an issue when they try to present their personal beliefs as facts. Particularly when they do so in a school setting.

The Jesus story would be a lot more believable if so many elements of it hadn't been lifted from much older myths and stories. Virgin birth, star in the east, 12 followers, miracles, execution, rising from the dead, etc. very similar to the Egyptian god Horus according to hieroglyphs.

I still don’t understand why discussing the historicity of Jesus is Christian bashing......

@BartholinsSister Also strong similarities to other gods such as Mithras, Dionysus and Osiris. Christianity was a fairly minor cult which probably would have died out if Rome had not chosen it as a tool to unite their empire.

BertrandRussell

You wouldn’t have to be stupid.........

Very true. Derren Brown is incredibly convincing! I wouldn't think it would be too hard to hoodwink people back then either.
My husband and I had a conversation about Derren Brown after watching his last show, and came to the conclusion that if he had lived 2000 years ago, he could have easily convinced people he was the Messiah!

I seem to recall somebody did a study of a dozen or so messiahs and the myths surrounding them. I think Jesus ticked 11 out of 12 boxes, more than any of the others!

There is no general consensus that Jesus was a real person

When discussing history I like to listen to what historians say. And there is a general consensus amongst historians of all faiths and none that Jesus was a real person. His baptism and crucifixion are considered to be genuine historic events. That does not, of course, mean that historians accept the rest of the biblical account.

In my experience a lot of the RE emphasis will depend on the teacher and their personal belief. Teachers with a strong Christian faith are going to go a bit further along the route of what " Christians believe about Jesus" than an agnostic, atheist or teacher of another faith would do.

I wouldn't stay awake at night worrying about it. See it as giving your child access to the wealth of art, music and architecture that Christianity and other faiths has bequeathed to the world.

So, let me get this right. Because the bible, written as it was decades after the events it is claiming to describe, included some events that had actually happened, as corroborated by other sources, therefore everything included in the bible must have happened?
Is that what I said Cardinal? No, it's not. I was talking about Jesus & the events around his life and death. Not the entire Bible. If you want to be rude at least try and stick to what I've actually written rather than trying to make it up.

I would urge people to be careful of simply telling their DC the ‘some believe’ caveat.

We did this with DS1. His obvious next question was whether we did etc. etc.

He was then given a rather hard time by some Christian staff members when he was in YR1

It’s happened to other friends’ DC too. Not infrequently.

My younger ones also get the, ‘some people think’ stuff but I hammer it home how important it is to respect other people’s beliefs.

Specifically, I now warn them that some people can get very upset if they think you don’t agree with them, so they should be careful asking questions.

Sad but true