To ask, re Tara Hudson and Karen White, if you've changed your minds since 2015 about penises in women's prisons?

[BarrackerBarmer]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2497536-to-think-if-you-have-a-penis-you-do-not-belong-in-a-womans-prison

In 2015 Hudson, convicted of a violent assault, and Hudson's '7 inch surprise' were transferred to a women's prison, after a successful media campaign and a petition which garnered 150k signatures. (Attached is a MN thread from 2015)
Hudson was and is legally and biologically male with intact and functioning male genitalia. It's quite possible that some who signed the petition were unaware of this. Attached are screenshots of adverts for Hudson's 'services' from 2015.

Following that precedent, the prison service have placed more legal and biologically intact males in with women, some of them rapists, and several assaults on women prisoners have occurred as a direct result.

'Karen White'

AIBU to ask if you have reconsidered or changed your views on biological males in women's prisons since 2015?

I used to do voluntary work in my local (men’s) prison. I thought then, as I do now, that prisoners with a penis should be in a men’s prison, and prisoners with a vagina should be in a women’s prison.

I can see an argument for a trans-population prison, but I suspect there would be numerous issues making this difficult, if possible at all.

The penises women in prison are much more at risk from are those of prison officers, who assault women prisoners (including women prisoners with penises, i might add) with impunity on a VERY REGULAR basis.

THere are enough trans women in prison for a specific wing or two. Putting them into a natal woman's prism is out of the question.

Sounds like a strong case for keeping ALL penises out of women's prisons, Medea, and just having biologically female guards. I think many women would agree with that.

Segregation of prisoners by biological sex, staff too.

The penises women in prison are much more at risk from are those of prison officers, who assault women prisoners (including women prisoners with penises, i might add) with impunity on a VERY REGULAR basis.

So we increase the risk to women by allowing men to share cells with them? We don’t try to prevent the abuse, towards women by men, we just say ‘fuck it! They’re getting abused anyway. We’ll just let ‘more’ men share space with them, because those men’s feelings are more important than women’s safety? That’s what you’re comment seems to be suggesting.

I signed the petition for Tara Hudson to be transferred to a women's prison, because I wrongly believed that Tara had full genital surgery. I now believe that no transgender prisoner should be transferred from male to female prison unless they have had full SRS and have their GRC, and not even then if they have been convicted of sexual or violent crimes against women and/or children.
There seems to enough transgender prisoners to have a seperate unit for them, so that should be the way to go, IMO.

@BarrackerBarmer @PositivelyPERF

I'm approaching this from a penal reform perspective, whereas it doesn't seem like your focus really cares about the welfare of women in prison. Like, you both seem to be taking for granted the fact that the current prison population in the women's estate is roughly as it should be (whereas I and most experts would argue that most women in prison are there inappropriately) and that the principal danger facing women in prison is trans women prisoners, whereas actually there is a broad and serious array of failings in the prison system that women kept there are vulnerable to. If you really do care about the welfare of women in prison, and aren't simply using it as a smokescreen or convenient prop for your trans-exclusionary viewpoints, then might i suggest reading up on the work coming from Inquest, Women in Prison, The Howard League, The Prison Reform Trust and other NGOs/charities/pressure groups so you can teally understand the most serious issues facing women in prison, and their families?

Please don’t try to gaslight women and manipulate the discussion away from men pretending to be women in order to access real women. The issue being discussed is the placement of men in female jails. If you genuinely want to protect females from predatory males, then you can easily start your own thread. Coming on here and shouting TERF, no matter how politely you try to word it, carries no power and shows you up for what you are.

Considering rapists and child abusers have been permitted to put females at risk in FEMALE jails, by the experts, your expertise counts for absolutely nothing. @Medea13

You should totally start a new thread for actions that can make women in jails safer, Medea. You'd get a lot of support.

This thread is on the topic of penises in prisons though. You make a very valid point that it is not just the male prisoners, but male guards that pose a risk. I'm happy to reiterate that for you. All male people pose a risk to vulnerable incarcerated women, and not just to their physical safety, but to their human rights to privacy and dignity.

And, given the potential for a landslide of requests from male people into the female estate following proposed changes to the GRA, this is a big enough topic for a thread of its own.

My opinion is still the same, people with penises belong on the male estate.

A friend of mine works at a high security prison and is horrified at the prospect of some of the vile excuses for humanity being allowed into a women's prison. She is in no doubt that those trying are looking for fresh victims.

Those trying to derail should take a long look at themselves.