To think Rihanna is a complete and utter fraud!?

[MissionItsPossible]

Now I wasn’t that naive to think that people get songs written for them. I knew Cathryn Dennis wrote Britney Spears ‘Toxic’ for Kylie Minogue and that ‘Baby one more time’ was written for TLC but I thought it meant just that: songwriting. I have today found original demos and can’t believe the songs sound exactly the same with a word or two changed so the artist can say they wrote it. I singled out Rihanna as she’s the main culprit on the YouTube videos I found but most of them are at it. I didn’t know the melody and the tune and basically the entire song gets created for them. Am I the only person who didn’t know this? I think most of these demos sound better than her versions!

(You have to copy and paste to listen to the original ‘Umbrella’ as MN only allows 3 videos, I think)

I better add that this is lighthearted before somebody takes it a little too seriously!

Dolly's version was written for a film way before the Bodyguard - she sings it to Burt Reynolds in The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. Her version is so tender and emotional. Much better.

The film Coyote Ugly explains it a bit too OP

Didn’t Dolly say that she could buy the bank after the success of the bodyguard?

Linda Perry of 4 non blondes wore beautiful for Christina Aguilera.

Great combo!

This episode of the NPR Planet Money podcast is a brilliant summary of how hit records are manufactured by committee. It specifically focuses on how one of Rihanna's blockbuster hits was created, and all the different parties involved

www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/07/10/421874671/episode-288-manufacturing-the-song-of-the-summer

Think you'd find it quite enlightening OP!

There's some early demos of Toxic where Cathy Dennis is actually singing it, for Britney to copy

'Songs written by Cathy Dennis for other artists' even has its own Wikipedia entry

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ListoffsongswrittennbyCathyy_Dennis

I don’t understand what your problem is? You knew Rihanna didn’t write her songs, and you thought ‘her’ producers did everything else, so how exactly is she a fraud?

You knew she doesn’t create her songs, you just had some weird idea that the only people who pitch tracks to artists are a small handful of producers who work exclusively for that artist.

See also the aptly named Amanda Ghost - who's written a tonne of massive hits for other artists, but is pretty much completely unknown

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ghost-writer-the-unsung-star-of-british-music-760226.html

I don't get why it's an issue? Surely the point about the song is the delivery, the voice, the arrangement? As others pointed out some songs recorded by a variety of artists, but different every time. Some singer/songwriters who do their own songs often write about their lives or about issues so a different set of expectations in relation to their work, but Rihanna is a popular artist not claiming to be anything else and is good at what she does.

I listen to a lot of jazz and again a lot of 'standards' that are recorded by a variety of musicians and the interest is in their arrangement and their delivery. Can actually be pleasurable to see how different people work with the same material. If listening to someone like P.J. Harvey who writes most of her own material then fine, but again this is because she is known for her lyrics as much as her singing.

The only issue I can think of relates to how a lot of artists in the past, particularly in soul and r n' b, lost the rights to their performances so got screwed by producers who made millions on their recordings, whereas the artists got small one-off fees, but this was so well publicised that contemporary artists are more likely to have decent contracts. And in any case a lot make more from touring/live performances than album sales.

If you don't think the performance is key, try listening to some favourite songs at a karaoke club! I guarantee you would prefer Rihanna to any version of her material you're likely to hear done by amateurs. Actors don't write their own lines and presumably you don't boycott/have a problem with films/telly/plays for that reason? Why should singers be held to a different standard?

And yes Dolly is a goddess, her bluegrass albums also amazing.

A lot of music is recycled today. There's a lot of recycled beats, tempos and I don't see anything wrong with that. There's only so many original beats you can come up with.

Singer-songwriters have only really been a thing since the '60s. Most artists before that passed standards around. Almost the entire point of Jazz is to create many different versions of the same number, to give it a John Coltrane or Miles Davis spin.

The Beatles transformed expectations around what was in an artist's remit.

I always assume that the songs are written for the artists - if they are a singer / songwriter then thats brilliant, i have more respect for them.
Sia and Adele i admire as they do both, although Adele does sing covers too.

I hadn't noticed Rihanna claiming she writes her own stuff.

The whole song writing by committee thing fascinates me. I was reading about Sia and others being stuck in a fancy house having to write for Beyonce. Don't blame her for deciding to go it alone.

My understanding was that having a pretty much “done” version of the song as a demo was how a song was sold to artists. From the song writers point of view the bigger the star who buys it the bigger the potentially royalties so they want them to hear it how it could be recorded. Sia - who is a prolific writer - would sing the demos for her songs that are to be sold; apparently the singing on Titanium (David Guetta) is actually her demo track that was being put to other singers to record when they tried to sell it - e.g. Katy Perry turned it down...

I know this is off topic but I thought "having a case of the green eyed monster" meant being envious or jealous about something.

Has the meaning of this changed or something? I am genuinely confused.

Re the OP- Singers using songs (lyrics and music or any combination) written by other people is do common in the music industry as to be the norm really so YADBU

Yes - very few artists these days write / maybe Bryan A, Adele, Taylor and Ed and a few others and look at how well they’ve done. I didn’t think Rihanna wrote any of her songs tbh,.... I think I read somewhere Bryan A wrote all his songs - that’s quite impressive

Yep, “the green eyed monster” comes from “Othello”: “beware my lord of jealousy - it is the green eyed monster which doth mock the meat it feeds on”, or something like that.

I don’t think Rihanna is any more of a fraud than any other pop star (and less than others; at least she can sing!), but sadly she was easily the worst act I’ve ever seen live. She was hardly on stage; kept everyone waiting for really long costume changes; and some of her dancing was way beyond provocative - i’m no prude, but there were lots of young girls in the audience. I was really disappointed!

As long as the writers get paid and acknowledged, I don't care if the singers aren't really writing their songs. They singers perform, but a whole team create the music and the video and the stage performance

^This. Absolutely.

I think what the op is describing is normal? Riri is a popstar not a songwriter & no different from the vast majority.

Yes... I find this thread confusing because I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge?

Like others, I don't care if a singer writes their own songs or not. I listen to them for their voice, not their writing talent.

They change a word or two so that it can licensed to them meaning royalties etc can be paid to them. It's just a business arrangement really.

Way back in the 50s/60s/70s, the Brill building in New York was chock full of rooms of songwriters who churned out songs which were picked up/sold to whoever wanted to sing them.

Gerry Goffin/Carole King were a notable duo who started off like that and then Carole King went on to be one of the greatest singer/songwriters of her generation.

Also Neil Sedaka