AIBU to be shocked that the NSPCC cancelled their Facebook Live session with Mumsnetters, because they didn't like the questions? That they can't explain why they aren't putting children in danger?

[loveyouradvice]

I am reeling from this - Mumsnet promoted a Facebook Live for Thursday 12.30... to talk about keeping Kids safe from Abuse, and to publicise their PANTS and SpeakOut StaySafe campaigns.

NSPCC just didn't turn up - and only 4 hours later published a brief statement that said nothing!!!! So lots of people waiting for a no show.

It is fine for them to have the policies they have - IF THEY CAN EXPLAIN that they really are in all children's best interests and that they aren't putting girls at risk..... They haven't even tried to do that... Just ignored us and run. Ignored MUMSNET - which is full of people who raise or give money to the NSPCC, and who use it.

HOW??? I am bewildered beyond words.....

Oh ... and hopefully clicky link here of the questions Mumsnetters asked - really thoughtful cogent ones!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_facebook_live/a3343961-Facebook-Live-about-talking-to-kids-about-staying-safe-from-abuse-with-NSPCC

Once again, I am grateful to MN feminists for flagging up issues and giving me facts,
this time about NSPCC policies - which have shocked me

I am drafting my will
I'm in my 60s without close family, but a fair bit to leave.
Hence choosing some charities as beneficiaries.

So now the NSPCC definitely won't be one of the charities gaining a 6-figure inheritance from me in the (hopefully not near) future

Either we need single sex spaces or we don’t.

If we do (clue: we do) we should have them.

But saying we need single-sex spaces and then letting penises into the girls’ spaces on the penis-owners’ say so is not okay.

That’s not anti-trans, that’s anti-penis-in-girls-spaces.

I’m going to post the question that I posed to the NSPCC here. Feel free to answer it.

From the NSPCC underwear rule:

Your body belongs to you. No-one should ever make you do things that make you feel embarrassed or uncomfortable.
No means no and you always have the right to say “no’. You’re in control of your body and the most important thing is how YOU feel. If you want to say ‘NO’, it’s your choice.

Guidelines produced for schools in Scotland (approved by Scotgov and endorsed by children’s orgs) recommend that male bodied children be allowed to share sleeping accommodation, toilets and changing rooms with girls.

If any girl or her parents feel uncomfortable, embarrassed or distressed by this, and “say NO” (as NSPCC encourage, above), the first response recommended by the guidelines is to remind them of “inclusion, equality and respect”.

Do he NSPCC consider that this response, particularly the implication that that saying NO is antithetical to respect, aligns with the principles of the underwear rule?

@shrodinger nice deflection on answering the question... You still didn't answer my question though.

The advice is that if a child discloses they are trans to you, you should keep that to yourself and not pass it on.

Intersex does not equal trans, people who made intersex should be judged on a case by case basis if an issue arises.

Do you know what, I admit I know very few trans kids. The few I know or know about are all female biologically with a history of trauma and abuse.
I am desperately worried that we are allowing these damaged young people to irreparably further damage themselves by affirming their gender choice without first doing some bloody hard counseling to address their trauma issues.
I have a trans woman family member. Their trans status is now interfering with their access to badly needed MH services.
I have met one other transwoman socially - she's what you would call an old school transsexual with gender dysphoria. Lovely lady, and I have no issues with her in the ladies with me. But I'm a grown up not a teen being forced to share open changing rooms with pre op non-gate-kept trans gender opposite sex bodied teens

nice deflection on answering the question... You still didn't answer my question though.

Do your own research - I'm off to bed right now.

It's not hard to find!

Human society segregates by sex because

• e.g. from UK criminal convictions -

men & boys commit 98% of the serious sexual assaults

They generally have the greater muscle mass & strength to do so, as well as having a penis

Weakening segregation weakens some of the protections for girls & women
I'm baffled at the thought processes of organisations - other than PIE - that wish to do so

*ArcheryAnnie

Fwiw I do hope that all of you ranty 'won't somebody think of the children' folk put as much effort into supporting vulnerable children in real life as you do arguing on the Internet.

Threadastaire very many of the women I know who are gender-crit have spent much of their lives working to support women and children - in refuges, domestic violence campaign, refugee support initiatives, rape crisis centres, playgroups. The gender-critical position frequently comes out of great experience of working together and creating inititatives - often with very little money and resources - to keep children safe.*

THIS

Lemon jello I would put good money on lots of deflection and insults and no actual answers

What is the case by case issue about an intersex person with a penis in a female single sex space?
Why do they get case by case when a trans person seemingly gets a blanket rule?

Does a chromosomal test make them less likely to be a rapist?
Do the other girls using that space get told they have to agree because that person is intersex and not trans? What if they disagree?

Just trying to follow your logic here.

Also, genuinely, if you have been formally advised in a professional capacity not to share on a need to know basis that a child tells you they are trans that really worries me. Theres a reason they've told you, are you meant to ignore them? They're at a higher risk of bullying, self harm and suicide. Yes you don't shout it from the rooftops but neither is it a personal secret, if that's what you understand your workplace policy to be then please challenge that.

@Abitcrapper it's always 'someone I know ' though isn't it?
Not those ranting in the thread, it's my mate down the pub.

@shrodinger if the evidence is so wonderful and easy to find, wouldn't it have been easier to just post it than write several posts saying that you're not going to? Clearly some of us need educating, why won't you help your cause?

This isn't just about whether they're a rapist. It's about girls having to share single sex spaces with people of the opposite sex.

It’s a pretty simple question Stealth, I’m sure someone here can manage it.

Yes this aligns with the underwear rule because...

Or

No, this does not align with the underwear rule because...

Or run away and hide under the NSPCC conference table. I forgot that option.

Presumably any efforts to end mixed sex wards can end now.

I’d really like to call BS that some of the posters on this thread work where they claim to. However having read the judgment on residency for a ‘trans’ child kindly posted by @tiredandweary I’m really not so sure.

Here it is again:

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html

Really good read for anyone interested in or posting on this thread.

Lots of people have asked why this and the initial "questions to the NSPCC" thread haven't been covered in the press...

Wondering if anyone has sent to the Newsdesks of daily newspapers? Guessing its worth a shot... if you fancy doing so?

And my follow up question to the NSPCC is ‘have you read that judgement? If not, why not? And if you have what changes, if any, have you made to policy as a result?

Threadastaire this is from the Mermaids 'Trans Inclusion Toolkit' for schools:

'School staff should not disclose
information that may reveal a pupil or student’s transgender status or gender- nonconforming presentation to others, including parents, carers and other members of the school community, unless legally required to do so or because the child or young person has asked them to do so'

To me, that goes against safeguarding rules about the need to share disclosures. The 'including parents and carers' part worries me the most.

it's always 'someone I know ' though isn't it?
Not those ranting in the thread, it's my mate down the pub.

Eh? I genuinely have no idea what you are referring to here.

@abitcrapper to answer your point about 'bloody hard counselling'. The UK approach to gender dysphoria is about supporting children to explore their identity which is done with a minimum 6 month assessment of a child along with their family (eg to get an understanding of how the child was when very young, from the parents). After that its a multi disciplinary team that work with a child in various ways but essentially its all talking based. There's no medical intervention pre 16yrs. At the very most, a child might get puberty blockers to effectively 'buy them time ' or if psychologically they can't cope with going through puberty in that gender.

Online and in the media it might suggest that if a child identifies as trans that this is accepted as concrete and that it sets an irreversible path but this certainly isn't the case in the nhs. Its different in the US where medical intervention can happen earlier.

Re your last post (cross posting sorry) I meant that when I challenged about people in here putting in the same effort IRL the response I got was ' we know other people who do ' not I do or we do.

Ok I’ll tell you the answer.

The answer is if course, no, it doesn’t align with the underwear rule.

But that means that the guidance for schools, endorsed by many a children’s org, goes against the NSPCC underwear rule.

So the answer must be yes, it does align with the underwear rule.

But that means that girls saying “NO” are being disrespectful and exclusionary.

So the answer must be no...

Repeat ad infinitum, while rocking under the conference table.

Ah ok I get you now, thanks.
Um, do you have any idea what that assessment and support consists of? In the cases I know about it is a handful of appointments in two years with a different person each time - so half the session is taken up going over history and getting to know each other - and absolutely NO exploration of trauma issues - which needs to be done consistently and gently with a known and trusted counsellor. And that just doesn't happen. There is no even gentle challenging of the decision to transition - it is affirmation all the way.
And all the while this person with a fragile sense of self is supported to socially transition. Which let me tell you is bloody hard to back down on if you start to waver or doubt yourself. During the teen years when most of us haven't a clue who we are anyway.
I am very glad that official routes are not to medically transition until older. But unfortunately today's youth are too used to buying what they want on the internet too easily...