To ask my employees why their DH’s aren’t pulling their weight when it comes to childcare?

[TheHoneyHunt]

So I know that my DH and me are fairly unusual in that we have a very equal approach to childcare and household chores. To be fair I wasn’t born lucky. My first H was an abusive freeloader, and I swore never to make that mistake again. However, I’ve now got so used to this way of living that I now find it normal.

I’m now lucky enough to have got to the stage in my career where I manage a large team. These are well paid jobs, paying £40k+, but do require some out of hours working.

Two of my team are on maternity leave. In discussing their return to work they both seem to be assuming that they will do all the childcare. Every pick up, every drop off. Their DH’s don’t seem to appear in the equation. As the employer of the mother, I am asked to accept all the flexibility required. And yet they are still talking about wanting to be treated as equals with their male counterparts.

If the want to be treated as equals in the workplace, AIBU to question why their childcare arrangements aren’t equal?

(I know there is an official “HR” answer to this...which will definitely go along the lines of “don’t even go there”....but what I want to know is am I being unreasonable to think this)

Men won't challenge them while it suits them though

Graphista I know I'm not paid well, you're not telling me anything I don't already know. I do my job because I enjoy it. And my employers won't increase wages on my say so? I'm not so self important to think so either. We don't charge extortionate care fees either because we don't agree with it.

I earn more than double my husbands salary yet when one of the kids is ill it's always me who has to take the time off to care for them, leave early to pick them up if they become ill at school, pop out to drop off Calpol, attend award assemblies, etc...

My husband once took a day off to care for our youngest as I had meetings at work. His manager called him into the office and advised if it happened again they would need to have "serious words".
A few months later he asked for a couple of hours off in the morning to attend an assembly and play - his boss's words were "why can't your wife do it".

Until these attitudes change then we are stuck with the old fashioned idea that childcare is the mums job. As much as I would love to disagree with the OP... maybe challenging these ideas is the only way that change will happen!

I start a new job soon and there was a statement in the advert saying they are trying to increase the number of women in senior roles so welcome flexible working requests. Well shouldn't these requests be for everyone? Male or female?

OP I think you would be unprofessional to question this directly, maybe the women on maternity leave want to take the responsibility for childcare, their husbands earn more than them or they have managers like my husbands...

I think you are being very unreasonable with this statement though they still want to be treated like their male counterparts

Can you explain further why they shouldn't be treated equally??? They are doing the same job yes? But over fewer days or hours? Why does this make their worth any less than their MALE counterparts??

WaterOff - enjoying your job is no replacement for an appropriate wage. Care work is so important, highly skilled AND requires a certain aptitude for the work both practically and emotionally - it is appalling that this is not recognised or valued mainly because it's a female dominated sector.

In all sectors women are far less likely to ask for a pay rise and even when they do ask for far less than men on average.

There was an Anne Robinson documentary aired in June titled "the trouble with women" looking at the women's rights movement generally. There was a woman Anne met who'd never asked for a pay rise. Iirc Anne encouraged her to do so with advice from industry/recruitment experts, long story short the woman ended up changing employers because her original employer was very resistant, her new employer resulted in her not only being paid more but having more flexibility in her job.

Her original employer lost a clearly excellent employee because they were too stubborn to treat her right.

But women are also accepting such treatment.

Cricketmum - I suspect I know the answer and will probably reluctantly accept/agree with it - why didn't your husband challenge his employers ILLEGAL behaviour regarding his having time off to care for a sick dependant?

The school play/assembly is not legally covered but unless there were a business need meaning it would have genuinely been detrimental to the business, your dh is entitled to take annual leave for whatever reason he likes. He doesn't even need to give a reason.

I'm not sure though on the law/regs on taking half days.

Do people not discuss before your DC’s are born how you are going to share bringing up the DC’s, especially when you return to work?

I challenged mine for years before we had dc. I was very resistant because he kept saying thses things tend to work themselves out

I think people can be quite niave as to the affect children will have on their career- I can’t tell you how many women I’ve had return from mat leave to present me with an utterly unrealistic plan which means they don’t have to drop any salary upon returning (most recent- working 7.30-3 in the office and catching up 8pm - 10pm at home, no lunch) and honestly it surprises me so much that they ever think a company will support it, but they genuinely seem to.

Or, I get a full timer request 4 days a week and when I ask how the work they do on the 5th day will be covered they seem genuinely surprised to be asked such a thing and mutter about working through lunch or catching up in the evening.

It isn’t just about kids though. Many employers refuse to allow any aspect of employees’ private lives to have any effect on the business. DH’s father died and he was only allowed one day off for the funeral. When he had an operation he was back at work the next day and changing his wound dressings in the gents. They sent him on a work trip the day before our wedding and if they’d had their way he’d have been travelling back on the morning of the wedding. When he booked paternity leave they told him our child was f*ing up the project for everyone and he couldn’t be off work at such a critical time. And when they found they couldn’t forcibly cancel his paternity leave they offered to pay for a nurse to assist me for a couple of weeks so he could avoid missing work. They couldn’t care less about anyone’s personal lives or about them as people, they only care about the business.

Ywbu to ask but yanbu to wonder. I think it boils down to choice vs necessity and career vs job. Some people have no choice, others do.

My dh and i share childcare when poorly and pickups even though i get paid more than him and he only gets unpaid leave. We weighed it up and we see both our work as careers. So we both needed to demonstrate commitment and both asked for flexible hours.

My friend, her dh had a job that he disliked while her career she liked. Both earned around the same but he does more and choses to work at home sometimes.

Another friend works from home and was infuriated by her husband's bosses and some mutual friends assuming that meant she would do everything (seems to be a home working thing). She does pick ups and drop offs a lot more but her dh does more childcare if the kids are sick.

Its what works for people. I do think its important to try do 50/50 or at least some % when dc are poorly certainly in my area as i heard numerous comments about how many of the women in the department take that on automatically because their husband works, seemingly forgetting they too have people relying on them at work. They see their dhs as more important for whatever reason but it translates over as not seeing work important at all. Which is can be ok in a job but not always for career progression.

My work is very flexible with home working and staggering times which is helpful however so often its assumed by our family and friends that any sickness falls to me. Dh was quizzed when requesting flexi leave why i wasnt doing everything.

And yes women and men should always be treated equally. When it comes to career progression obviously its going to be those who put in the commitment (male or female) that get it over those who don't as much. Its the same with anything. Those who are assertive, sadly often those aggressive, and those who stand out often go first.

However, that may not mean a parent who leaves early/comes in late is doing less. They may (as with many i know) WFH in the evening to ensure hours and work are done. Thats still demonstrating commitment and meeting obligations.

The company I work for has recently been all over LinkedIn bugging up how brilliant an employer they are for working mums, encouraging and supporting progression etc. It is nauseating virtue signalling.

The not-for-profit organisation I work for won a national award for its family-friendliness. They put their money where their mouth is and are really flexible, not just about childcare, but other responsibilities, too. They'll let you leave early to take a dog to the vet or work from home if you have to wait in for a plumber. Even very senior (board level) male staff will sometimes stay home with a sick child or leave early to take a child to an appointment.

At the award ceremony, most of the other winners were in the banking/finance sector. When they all got chatting, our director found that many of these companies resolved senior staff's childcare issues by paying for an agency nanny so the employee could get to work. To me, that's not family-friendly. Imo a sick child needs to be with someone they know and love, not some stranger from an agency.

glintandglide, not being goady, but can you explain your concern with the requests you've received? Your objection seems to be anyone working part-time/flexi-time at all?

Think this was a good and honest question. Thanks OP for broaching it. Don't think you are being unreasonable for wandering.

It does remind me of when we only had one child and my DH's company would have preferred we moved to Oxford, but I worked in the City. They said to him, "it's a shame you didn't have another child, so your wife would have to give up work' (which would never and did never happen), he moved departments a few years later and we had another DC, but in this dept, he was allowed to work from home and thrived in a much more interesting technical role.
When I reminded him about it DH laughed it off, as barely a thing. He wonders why I am getting more militant about feminist issues as I get older.

Employer's attitudes I think are key.

Heatwave I agree. I used to have a member of staff with two young children and some health puroblems /family issues of her own. Barely a month went by without something requiring her to change her day or take leave at very short notice. But she was extremely committed, dialling into meeting when home with a sick child, working into the evenings to meet deadlines and she went over and above what was expected of her. She also took responsibility for delivering so if her child was sick she didn't just down tools, she made sure she made arrangements for whatever needed to happen (I'm talking about a cold or bug, obviously if a child is seriously ill people should not even think about work). She was very highly valued and I would have recommended her for a promotion. So even if you do have caring responsibilities it doesn't stop you doing and excellent job (assuming the job can be flexible, which ours can). Oh and when her dc was sick she always made a point of saying which days she was doing and which her dh was doing. Because her job was important.

My DH has often earned more than me but so what. I also provide the health benefits with my job and am valued by my employer.

I find so much comes down to expectations. I expect my partner to pull his weight with the children. Why doesn't everyone? I genuinely don't get it.

his boss's words were "why can't your wife do it" - how about replying: because she makes twice my salary?

There could be a whole range of reasons. I wouldn't assume that it's because their DH's aren't pulling their weight. I do most of the childcare by design. This was my choice. I was very career oriented and the higher earner. I completely revaluated after absolutely hating going back full time after my first. I didn't actually want to go back to work initially (although now they are a bit older I am glad I had to stay part time). Thankfully my employer accepts my decision and supports me. I would be really offended if he asked me why my DH wasn't pulling his weight and would feel judged and not valued, like he thought my time is worth less than a full timers. I actually feel really lucky to that my dh was happy to make the necessary adjustments for me to go part time and be there for all the appointments etc. Even if he does come, and he does sometimes, I always want to get there anyway. He has worked really hard to get several promotions to make up for the drop in my income. It works for us, and I have now got a good balance of work and home that I am happy with.

@KatharinaRosalie - stupid male pride. He won't say that to his male boss. Frustrating as hell!!!

@tattyheadsmum seriously? working 8-10pm when none of their customers or colleagues are working? and more is the point I’m not running a sweat shop here. No way am I having people who working for me starting at 7.30am or finishing at 10pm or working through lunch breaks.

They’re not productive, it’s not good for their work: life balance and take a step back: it’s a bonkers idea.

I have no problem with flexible working but I have full time posts in my team. The workload is full time. If they do 80% FTE who does the rest of the work? I’d love someone to come to me with a fantastic proposal- ideally say a job share- but they don’t. They can’t drop any money so they just desperately offer whatever odd hours they have spare in the day. It’s not sustainable or productive.

I’m a full time working mum. Nothing annoys me more than seeing my friends doing full time jobs for 80% of a full
Time wage. I try as hard as I can not to let it happen to the people I manage as my own little contribution to the revolution.

As a female boss of women I concur that committed career focussed women are loyal, excellent workers and do a great job juggling, flexitiming by working evenings etc.

These women are working hard to ‘have it all’ , and it takes energy, and in my case, depends on also having a partner who buys into the idea of equal responsibility. E.g If I need to work at the weekend because I have covers a sick day, he needs to run the birthday party including the shop, the catering etc.

However, put simply, if within a family you have decided to prioritise one person’s job over the other, (and not doing the ‘have It all’ juggling act) the person who is consistently asking for unpaid leave, emergency Carers leave, sudden flexibility, is essentially also saying to their employer “our loyalty is actually to my husband’s employer, not you”.

That is what I think the OP is alluding to.

Clearly there are some jobs for which it's much harder to grant flexible working and requests have to be balanced against business need. A number of people on this thread are insisting that in their DH's case there is no flexibility possible. In individual circumstances that may be the case. But the fact remains that in most jobs bar there is some potential for flexibility to be at least considered/creative ways available for it to be suggested. And as others have said, how about these men adjust their career expectations or shop around in the way most women do? But I suspect for many men that would interrupt their cushy lifestyles where their important work always trumps mundane family responsibilities. Change in these sorts of scenarios can happen but it needs men to push for it, and senior men to advocate it and challenge existing norms and attitudes. It seems a lot of them just don't value family duties enough to push for it.

“stupid male pride. He won't say that to his male boss. Frustrating as hell!!!”

Yep, this is a major part of the problem. And men doing ‘presenteeisn’, heroic self promotion, because they have a woman at home doing bath time and parents evening.

LadyLollington Exactly!

It is a self perpetuating problem: men get ahead and earn more and then they are seen within the family as being the priority to be getting even further ahead and earning more.....

It’s like that phenomenum with surnames.

Women change their names to a man’s on marriage because he always has one of those magic male names that are better than their wives to be.

And men always have the magic job that is waaaay to important to accommodate any form of flexibility or job sharing etc.