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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think university snobbery must stop

708 replies

Staceystace · 30/08/2018 19:22

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2018 09:49

Yes, I know what a percentage is. Hmm I meant, 70% of what content... 70% of something eyewateringly hard or 70% of something quite challenging or 70% of something significantly easier?

If grade boundaries are fixed percentages then the 'of what' matters more than if there are variable grade boundaries as used for GCSEs and A levels; these are not a fixed percentage, they are varied each year to even out the percentage getting each grade year on year, to adjust for variation in difficulty of papers. More like a percentile (which is my understanding of the course I'd heard described) but as universities are not all producing 30% firsts that can't be what they're all doing.

Sorry - I'm not trying to be awkward, and those percentages look like what pertained when I did my degree many years ago (without thinking at the time exactly what they meant). If grade boundaries are fixed percentages rather than the adjusted type used for GCSEs and A levels then they're not meaningful for comparing between courses and across time, are they? The '70% of what' matters.

LoniceraJaponica · 02/09/2018 09:50

How important is it to students that a university is research intensive?

DrMantisToboggan · 02/09/2018 09:57

Errol

I’d be frankly astonished if any course at Cambridge simply allocated 1sts to the top 30% of the student cohort. Have you gotten this information from current or former students?

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 02/09/2018 09:59

I also have significant amount of experience in this sector. I've worked in a range of universities in their student recruitment teams, was head of student recruitment for 4 years, my PhD was on career decision making behaviour around HE and I'm now an academic and admissions tutor. My DH has worked in HE careers services across the country and is now director of careers at a RG uni.

I don't equate research intensity with quality but there has been assumptions made on this thread about the quality and intensity at post 92 institutions so that was my response to that.

Throughout this thread I have pointed out that the terms RG, ex-poly, red brick etc are not necessarily indications of quality. I do defend post 92 institutions because I detest the snobbery surrounding them when I know many of these unis are doing excellent things. There have been numerous posts suggesting that unless your degree is from Oxbridge or a RG uni then it's worthless. If you work in the sector you will know that not true and is just offensive.

In my opinion, the biggest problem the HE sector has had in recent years has been the removal of SNC and the consumerisation of the HE sector and all that entails. Just my opinion though!

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 02/09/2018 10:00

@loni not one little bit!! They couldn't care less!

DrMantisToboggan · 02/09/2018 10:06

In my opinion, the biggest problem the HE sector has had in recent years has been the removal of SNC and the consumerisation of the HE sector and all that entails. Just my opinion though!

Yes I definitely agree with that. I also think that this has compounded the problems arising from the post-92 restructuring though.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2018 10:09

Current. The conversation definitely was about percentiles and adjusted rather than fixed grade boundaries being used. Maybe it was in relation to Part I rather than finals.

PeakPants · 02/09/2018 10:10

Errol you are right that the contents of the course matters. I am by no means saying that the contents is directly comparable. I listed the grade boundaries etc due to 2 comments on here. One said she found her DH's transcript and she said she would not have been allowed to graduate with those grades. That can't be correct. The other person said that at their university, they needed 90% to get a first. Also untrue unless maybe she is at the OU which is 85% I think.

RGs do have a higher percentage of students graduating with a 2.1. or a first though and I believe Cambridge does award around a third of its students a first (and at Cambridge you only need to get a first in one part of the Tripos to say you got a first overall; not an average over the second and third year. Additionally, at Cam you sit the exams every year, just as at other universities, whereas at Oxford, you take all the second and third year exams over a short period at the end of the third year, which is inevitably more stressful).

But in answer to your point, no, I do not believe the contents are the same across the board. But they might not be quite as different as you imagine.

LoniceraJaponica · 02/09/2018 10:10

What is SNC?

JillCrewesmum · 02/09/2018 10:12

MaisyPops is absolutely correct that some day all this kicking the debt can down the road will have to stop, and also correct that for those earning above the threshold, interest becomes a big issue. Student debt can become a life-plan limiting issue for many. Can you save for a house when you owe the equivalent of the sticker price of a really nice Audi? Can you plan to have children? Can you consider starting your own business?

So are you saying only well paid people should have the chance to go to uni? That's what it sounds like. People who can afford the tax, the Audi and the kids without a struggle.

DrMantisToboggan · 02/09/2018 10:15

and I believe Cambridge does award around a third of its students a first

This doesn’t mean that they draw a line under 30% of students though (don’t think you’re implying this but just wanted to be clear).

SNC is student numbers cap. Universities can now take as many students as they like, whereas previously there were limits imposed by the gov.

LoniceraJaponica · 02/09/2018 10:16

Thank you

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 02/09/2018 10:16

@loni SNC = student number controls. Universities used to be given a quota of students they were allowed to recruit and were fined if they exceeded those quotas.
They were removed a few years ago meaning universities can now recruit as many as they can fit in. This was done at a time when we were just about to enter a demographic dip meaning there are fewer 18 year olds around. This has seen the marketing activity around university become increasingly competitive and aggressive.

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 02/09/2018 10:19

@maisypops students loans aren't negatively credit scores so don't show up on your credit report. They don't prevent you getting a mortgage, car loan etc.

The money is taken out of your pay alongside tax, national insurance, pension etc. If your income drops below the £25,000 threshold you stop paying.

PeakPants · 02/09/2018 10:21

No DrMantis I am definitely not implying that! Smile

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 02/09/2018 10:21

Also the amount you pay back per month is not related to the amount you owe. It's entirely dependent on your salary.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2018 10:23

The specific course I was thinking about awards no firsts at all according to unistats Grinit's an integrated masters so they just show the end result of distinction, merit and pass... the firsts etc must be from part I or 3rd year. Sorry, I've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole!

MaisyPops · 02/09/2018 13:31

students loans aren't negatively credit scores so don't show up on your credit report. They don't prevent you getting a mortgage, car loan etc
I know that.
It's still millions and millions paid out in loans which need accounting for at some point by someone though.
MaisyPops is absolutely correct that some day all this kicking the debt can down the road will have to stop,
That's the thing. It's fine at the moment. Students take the loans with many going to uni knowing they will never have to pay it off. Not sure what to do? Go to uni and then think about that later. Have the experience funded by debt and ignore the fact that a decent proportion of you will never touch a loan that keeps growing in interest each year.
So who does pay it off? The money has been borrowed. It has been paid to universities and spent lining the pockets of senior leaders whilst ruining the conditions for academic and research staff
What's going to happen in 30 years when the government write off time starts hitting?
Are the government going to pay it off? And if so are people going to be happy paying more tax to fund a lifestyle choice made by 18 year olds on the grounds of 'it won't matter because I'll never pay it back? Will people be happy if millions has to be slashed from otherwise already stretched public services to account for the fact creditors want their money? Will people be happy if there is an HE bailout like the banks?

Millions and millions of pounds over several years doesn't just disappear on a national level because a government told a generation of 18 year olds that They could have a blank cheque to keep them off the unemployment stats for a few years.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2018 13:37

It's also worth considering the fact that the terms of the loan are not fixed. The government can change the thresholds (which is necessary and we hope will be in line with salaries) but they can - correct me if I'm wrong - also alter the interest rate and the payback percentage.

IrmaFayLear · 02/09/2018 13:40

This concerns me too. Why write it off after 30 years? Why not take the money from inheritances/capital/upon death? That would be fairer than moderate-earning schmucks having to pay whilst those who could be quite well off in terms of capital but don't earn much/anything escape.

And look at this person Angry :

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/9800374/Loophole-Ill-never-have-to-repay-my-student-loan.html

MaisyPops · 02/09/2018 13:43

ErrolTheDragon
It's a ticking time bomb.

Increase tuition fees
Freely loan anyone tens of thousands of pounds for a few years to he a student (nice reduction in unemployment stats)
Tell them they don't have to worry because they'll probably never pay it back.
Let the interest rack up even if people are above the threshold they are hardly making a dent in the interest
Then get rid of the cap for undergraduate numbers

What do you get? And entire system set up on a massive cushion of debt which apparently is going to magically disappear after 30 years.

I can't help but think people would maybe spend more time thinking about what they will going gain from university if they knew they were going to have to pay it back. The way some of our 6th formers talk university is an experience everyone does and an extended adolescence away from home.

LoniceraJaponica · 02/09/2018 13:51

"The way some of our 6th formers talk university is an experience everyone does and an extended adolescence away from home."

This ^^

So many of the boys in DD's year were talking about how many girls they wanted to shag at university. The cheap beer and free condoms is what they seem to be focussing on.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2018 13:58

DD and DH made spreadsheets predicting how much her loan will ultimately cost, and when (not if) she'll have paid it back for a variety of career trajectories (e.g. taking break/part time for parenting or not). But they couldn't factor in all the possible changes to the terms.

MaisyPops · 02/09/2018 14:11

ErrolTheDragon
It's worrying.

For my colleague, they got themselves a well paying job (newly qualified teachers are just above the repayment threshold) and they realised that they'll probably never pay it off even if they got to deputy head. The interest is growing quicker than they are paying.

LoniceraJaponica
Yes. And if I were to make a sweeping generalisation. The ones who are paying more attention to the 'experience' and picking universities linked to the city and nightlife are the ones who are:

  • going to lower ranking universities
  • not doing a qualification that qualifies them for a job (like nursing, midwifery, engineering, paramedic, social work, teaching etc)
  • tend to be middle to lower students, going because they don't know what else to do
  • it's the thing to do and it'll be a great experience
  • Don't fancy trying to get a job at 18 because why would you when you can get loans to get drunk for 3 years?

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that everyone else has it sorted but the logic of other students is sensible:

  • bright student - off to medicine, law, dentistry at top universities
  • bright and middle students - going to top unis and traditional city ones, top newer universities that are high in the rankings - not 100% sure what to do but are confident that their course is good, and they can worl in a related field or go on a grad scheme
  • students (range of ability) doing practical courses, largely at former polys which are rated brilliantly for their courses in health, physio, education, social work, courses preparing for entry to uniformed services etc

They seem to have given a lot more thought to what they will get at the end of 3 years.

LoniceraJaponica · 02/09/2018 14:18

DD wasn't sure what she wanted to do, so she is having a gap year. She has now decided that she wants to do biomedical science at a top university (not Oxbridge, she wouldn't get in or thrive under that kind of pressure).

She flirted with the idea of biomed last year, but wasn't sure. She has now decided it is what she wants. I think doing so well in her A levels has given her a bit more confidence in her choice. I hope this kind of degree will open doors for her.