Low salaries not actually low?

[highchairhell]

I'm probably being unreasonable here but it really frustrates me when people say 'we manage on a salary of £24k' etc but conveniently forget to mention the tax credits, child benefit, subsidised school lunches etc that bumps the salary up considerably.
On threads where someone says they struggle earning £50k there are always posters who are incredulous and outraged that people aren't living like kings on that but fail to realise that there would be little to no help for families on that wage whereas the lower wages are propped up with tax free benefits and housing pay that means they have more disposable income than the on paper huger earners!

24K isn't low! I'd be over the moon. I manage on 12K and don't get any benefits at all, no rent top ups or anything. I've only ever claimed UC when out of work. Luckily I'm able to rent a room from my mum for a very low rate or I wouldn't be able to live.

@SchadenfreudePersonified

I did not see anyone on this thread vilifying people on benefits. Maybe just did not read through properly.
I can tell you what's in it for me, I actually described it earlier. I can properly feel how things are only from my own perspective, which is a single parent with two very young children.
And the reality is that there is practically no change in my disposable income in the interval between £0 and ~£72K in salaried pay. Once both children are in primary school, this interval shortens to £0 to approx. £50K, and by the time they are in secondary school I am certainly better off working - but it is 9 years away at the moment.
There are no special circumstances in my case - no pet tigers to feed, secret yachts to fuel or Hogwarts school fees to pay.

I am not trying to count someone else's money, I am actually questioning my own life choices. My children don't get to see me very much (and when they do, I am exhausted or busy with domestic chores). I am afraid of them growing up with serious psychological issues because of this. And it sometimes does, in retrospect, feel like a massive waste of time and energy to have spent the best part of my sweeter years obtaining various credentials and money-attracting-post-nominals.

Ok. Die Antword the way people afford things is, not one person in my family earns below 6 figures.

And we're from family who have earned the same

Do I agree with it? No.

No I don't.

Do I know a better way?

Yes. I think I do.

@ILikeyourHairyHands

Ok. But are there really enough people renumerated at that level to create a market for all of these insanely grand and huge homes, the ones nearby, the ones in London, the ones in all the major cities and all over? I mean logically there must be but I find it astonishing.

I don’t see anything wrong with it though, why would it be wrong, as long as their not gloating and thinking that having a higher salary makes them a better person why should I think it’s wrong?

But do tell me about your “better way”?

I just realised I misinterpreted your post (imagined 6 zeros not 6 digits). At the low end a 6 figure income would be nowhere near enough to buy the homes in question. There’s almost 2 million people earning that much so I could see it. But these places are literal mansions.

The expensive houses thing is a mystery to me too. I live in a part of the UK with very low salaries. Anything over 30k here is a really good, professional level salary, anything over 50k is in the realms of fantasy for the vast majority of people, no matter how good their CV. But there are plenty of £0.5m houses, and when you see them for sale it's often clear they are owned by young families. It's baffling. I know that anyone in London and the south east will obviously be thinking 'but £0.5m isn't an expensive house' but in an area where probably less than half of people in employment even earn 20k or more it's unbelievably expensive.

I don't resent that other people can afford these expensive houses, but I am intrigued by it.

@DieAntword
One of my senior colleagues bought one of those. He must be on around 110-120K and his wife is an experienced secondary teacher (so around 40K probably?). They had a property in Shepherds Bush that they bought for 200K 16 years ago, and sold for over 900K, so had at least ~600K deposit available (plus savings of course, of which I know nothing). It is anecdotal of course, but I think partially it is just housing market bootstrapping itself.
And non-salary income, of course. Until very recently, dividends were practically not taxed as personal income, so company owners working in their company had a 30%-40% advantage over an employee on similar gross pay in the top 1%.

I receive DLA and carers allowance for my daughter and this makes a lot of difference to our income.

You also get around £60pw added to child tax credits if your child gets DLA. It makes a massive difference (quite rightly, imo).

The people on the lowest wages should be subsidized to some degree because everyone should have enough to live on.

Imo, employers should be paying people enough to live on, and rents should be controlled so that people don't have to pay the equivalent of one person's wages just to keep a roof over their heads.

I think it's disgraceful that people on low incomes are paying tax to subsidise skinflint employers' low pay bills. My junior colleagues only take home £1,300 a month and in this area you can't rent a one-bed flat for less than £700 a month and council tax, even with the 25% discount, is £60-80 a month. They have to provide their own car for work. They are seriously skint, still pay tax and NI, and aren't enititled to a penny in housing benefit or tax credits unless they have kids.

And part of their job is helping people make sure they're getting all the benefits they're entitled to. They're great at coaching clients in budgetting skills though, because they have to be brilliant at it themselves!

Lower incomes do not get housing benefit or free school meals. Tax credits yes, but that will probably only add upto something between 26, 28 thousand a year and it's probably mostly spent on childcare. So some families still only live on 24 thousand if that.
I think you are a little muddled it is considerably less that 50 thousand.

Oh and they still pay council tax and all their other bills. I think some people live through tinted glasses when it comes to benefits.

I'm working on a degree to earn more. But I struggle and can't afford holidays or a car. So no you're wrong!

ok - based on BackToBeingMe because she has given figures

Do earns £24000 a year
£365 a month housing benefit,
£226 a week tax credits,
£48.10 a week child benefit and council tax is reduced from
£165 a month to £98

Annualised income
Monthly 12 *1524 = 18,288.00
Monthly 12 * 365 = 4,380.00
(4 weekly 52/12 )13 * 226 = 2,938.00
52 * 48.1 = 2,501.20
Monthly 12 * 67 = 804.00

Total Monthly Income 2,409.27

based on 'The Salary Calculator" is equivalent to 37,500

(Still not a fortune for a family of 5 to live on)

@LeroyJenkins
£226 tax credits a week amount to £11.6K net a year, not £2.9K.

Cuckoo

If I've picked you up wrongly, I can only apologise for being so snippy.

I tend to be hypersensitive around this issue because I have seen real poverty (and for a couple of years when my DCs were young, was very close to it, though thankfully we didn't quite "tip" over the edge). I've seen the pain and distress it causes, and I do find I get very defensive iff I suspect even a whiff of criticism of people who are, through no fault of their own, poor.

I apologise for any undeserved snippiness I sent your way.

(Still friends, I hope?)

Question for the single parents with small children. Do you get maintenance from your OH and is this taken into consideration with regards to any benefits you may be entitled to? Genuine question, not being judgemental, just thinking that in an ideal world OH's should be contributing if possible.

Im a single parent, I work part-time and I get around £2 more than NMW, However, as I am classed as a "high earner" (I come out with less than a grand a month) I get limited benefits, I get £35 a fortnight HB ( my rent is 625 a month), no council tax support, and less than £100 a week TC, so when people say they "earn" 24k a year, I would highly doubt that they receive any other benefit. If they do, then im doing something wrong.

@Older I receive £100 a month from EXH , he works and earns nearly double than what I do, but due to "personal circumstances" only pays the DS a pitance. Fair? No, Can I do anything about it? No. Do I have to thank him for anything? No...And thats the best bit.

@SchadenfreudePersonified
Absolutely no hurt feelings here . I grew up in a third world poverty myself, when if something bad happens to you, it's pretty much the end of you. It would never occur to me to criticize someone because of how much they earn or spend.

My opinion of the UK benefit system is probably a bit biased as the only people I know closely and personally who are long-term welfare claimants (ex's extended family) are quite a caricature that does not serve justice to an average struggling family.

Question for the single parents with small children. Do you get maintenance from your OH and is this taken into consideration with regards to any benefits you may be entitled to?

They used to take this into consideration but when so many of these feckless dads just stopped paying willy nilly or made themselves unemployed to get out of paying it, it was seen to be an unreliable source of income and so now it isn't included, thankfully.

Some single mums get as little as £5 a week towards to upkeep of their DCs. Just think on that when you question why it isn't included. Even for those getting a few hundred a month based on CMS figures, think about how much you spend on housing, bills, food and clothes for your DCs and you will see that it doesn't go far enough.

I do get money from my DCs' dad, but I don't see why this should be excluded from any help I get financially, just to ensure that my kids aren't getting too much support! The amount he pays is a fraction of his salary and goes nowhere near half of what it costs to raise 3 children. If his contribution was taken off my tax credits I would be back on the bare minimum and my kids would bear the brunt of this, while their dad is on a £55k salary. They should be able to benefit, even in a small way, from their dad being on a reasonable income.

As it stands, with my income and tax credits we are on the bare minimum it is deemed necessary for a family of 4 to live on - with their dad's money, we do ok but are by no means well off and I have several thousand pounds of credit card debt. Reducing my income by a few hundred a month makes a massive difference, its not a case of tightening belts, but of having to fund everyday life on a credit card and worry about it when they've all grown up.

@silvercuckoo - dammit - i'm tired!! you;re dead right

12 * 1524 = 18,288
12 * 365 = 4,380
52 * 226 = 11,752
52 * 48.1 = 2,501
12 * 67 = 804

Monthly Income; £3,143.77

Salary Calc, puts that at £51,223 pa
much nicer to spend on a family of 5...

@OlderThanAverageforMN
I don't get any child maintenance at the moment as ex is taking a long break from work for soul searching and world travel. He used to be a high earner, but obviously he cannot be forced to work and contribute. I received child maintenance before for two months, £650 for two children according to the CSA calculation (on paper we have a 60/40 custody split).
It is not taken into account for the benefit calculations, but does impact other areas. For example, there are difficulties with getting 30 hours "free" childcare for over 3s if the other parent is not working. I have to provide evidence before the end of September that my ex is not available to look after the children. Not sure even where to start with collecting this proof - last time I heard anything from him was last Christmas.

exactly what I meant - the family of 5 on £24,000 are actually on £51,000 - double.
Absolutely not saying it's wrong, I think it's fantastic we have that support. My point was only that the low salaries aren't all they seem when benefits are taken into account! No judgement or goading or demonising at all - just tiring seeing people attacked for saying £50,000 is hard to live on, then others saying oh I'd love that salary, we survive on £24,000.... NO YOU DONT!!

That family of 5 is only getting that amount because they have a disabled child and rent. If they had a mortgage and didn't have a disabled child they would not get anywhere near that amount so they are not a good example to use. Most families of 5 on £24,000 would get about £500 in tax credits a month which does not bring them up to 50K.

That family of 5 is only getting that amount because they have a disabled child and rent.

that family didnt include their DLA deliberately

Tax credits and hb have a disability element so it is only high due to disability.

Ah, ok, I'm lucky enough to be earning more than the limit, and only get dla for dc, so didn't know