to think that back sleeping guidelines are taking the piss

[extrastrongnosugar]

on my third baby here, just got him fresh from the hospital and its day four. and night four with 1-2hr sleep totals for me. its 3am now and i had 45min so far. hes fast asleep after nursing on me but once i lay him to bed, nicely swaddled with rolled up tetras on the side for a lovely huggy feeling, he inevitably wakes up and starts crying. i am now rembembering that with number 2 i didnt even try. am just reading up on the guidelines again and tgey basically admit the reason back sleeping prevents infant death sybdrome is because it prevents deep sleep and that most babys prefer to sleep on their belly. i love it that they recommend back sleeping until year one, completely oblivious to the fact that a baby that wont sleep on its back will sleep on the mother - which is much riskier and also nice for pretending a person can go a year without sleep and not become homicidal. AIBU to think back sleeping is completely impractical advice that doesnt take into account other risk factors and follow a kind of stupid circular logic? i have another suggestion: if deep sleep is so dangerous lets just all wake up our babies every hour - at least that way well get a full hours sleep now and then!

Hi I feel your pain. Dd1 slept on her back ok. Dd2. No effing way. Not in the day not at night. I would get her to sleep,swaddle her, tilted cot, fast asleep. 3 mins in the cot and she would wake up. I ended up co sleeping (as safe as possible - no covers etc , in the cot pushed up to the bed - also had a very supportive midwife). Funnily enough she would sleep on her back when co sleeping as long as I was touching her. Could be one to try if you feel comfortable coming sleeping.

I'm really happy to have the information available to me so I can make an informed decision.
Surely no one wants guidance on how to prevent baby deaths to be kept from parents in case some find it difficult to follow?

My dd1 was breech and her little legs used to poke upwards so she would be put on her back but poop over onto her side. She did this for many weeks! Then her legs got the idea they could relax down straight and she occasionally slept on her back but by then she preferred her side. Health visitor kept trying to get me to get her on her back but it didn't succeed

Dd2 slept on her back in her crib but her front on my dh and me

DD3 sleeps on her back now but when tiny she slept on my chest on her tummy tucked into my pjs
She sleeps on her side when she's feeding off me in bed during the night and often stays in that position when she's finished.

I think babies find their own comfy places if allowed. Guidelines are guidelines and so long as they are not too hot/cold and there's nothing they can shuffle into to suffocate and you keep checking them (which we do as parents anyway) I think it's fine for them to sleep however they find comfy

My mum says it was 'the fashion' when I was a baby, and my brother, for babies to be put down on their bellies

hello there:) its 4 and after the feeding frenzy and the ensuing mega-poo we are entering the more quiet part of the night so here we are...
its nice to be back on mumsnet there are some really helpful comments on this thread and its all very non judgemental!
some posters misunderstood my expectations: of course i dont expect my baby to sleep well on night 5 i would probably wake him and watch him all night if he did that.

im also not at all arguing with the effictiveness of the back to sleep policy.

what im saying is that its not enough to give out such a policy while completely ignoring the realities for a huge chunk of parents for whom trying to get their babies to sleep on their back is a constant struggle- or more like a full on war with a little creature you only want to see snuggling happily and peacefully.
the reality is that we (mums of babies that wont back sleep) will never leave our non-back sleeping babies cry in their cot, nope, we will pick them up, nurse them, comfort them and rest them on us so they can get some rest EVERY TIME, even when i am so sleep deprived that my head is falling places, i see double and im having lucid dreams/borderline halluzinations.

so the guideline in my opinion really needs to do a little more than just tell me i will kill my baby if i dont put it on its back (for it to wake up in 5 min tops unless ive submitted it to complete exhaustion when itll maybe stay put 1hr max).

it needs to adress the whole reality and give us real tools, with data behind it, to make the call as to when falling asleep on ur baby becomes riskier than putting him on front.

also just want to mention that i already had two little ones like this so i am pretty sure this isnt something that will get better in a few weeks...with my first it was bloodshed to put her on her back until we finally gave in and let her sleep on the front ( dont rembember if we reached the 4 month holy grail) - which btw still didnt make her a good sleeper. but there came a point where i said it cant be healthy for a teeny baby to be woken up everytime after 20 minutes dozing on mama (when i tried to put her in cot) as well. that is also torture of a little person.

i still havent read all the posts but ill try to put together a list of all the survival tips and tricks from here at the end, so if you have any bring it on!

also, does anyone know how to get a baby monitor to work with a crib attached to the bed? its picking up all my movements...

Have you looked at safe cosleeping?

I'm not sure what other information you want organisations to give though. We know that babies are more likely to die on their fronts but not the exact mechanism. It's up to you to make your own decisions based on the information available.

Falling asleep holding your baby, especially on a chair or sofa, is very dangerous so please avoid this.

I'd there a dad around who is willing to allow you to get some sleep?

@cheesemongery

They still do baby nests now, the most commonly used one is called a Sleepyhead - but there was something written about these a while ago, that they don't recommend these nests, especially the babymoov - I think that particular one keeps baby in a certain position to stop them moving around!

Some of those baby nests or baby pillows look a bit risky to me.

it needs to adress the whole reality and give us real tools, with data behind it, to make the call as to when falling asleep on ur baby becomes riskier than putting him on front.

In terms of which is statistically riskier, I would be interested to see but even if one was more of a risk than the other, I don’t think I would choose either tbh!
Better options may be feeding laying down with the bed set up for safe co-sleeping or taking it in turns with your partner to sleep with baby on you (providing you can stay awake-do something on your phone maybe and if you were sleeping in between ‘shifts’ it may work, although I appreciate it’s far from easy especially with other DC).

I think that the data behind babies sleeping on their front in relation to SIDS is strong and I don’t think it should be given as an option as it’s not just a tiny bit more riskier but a lot more riskier.
Even with the message of ‘back to sleep’ you can see by this thread that so many people say ‘I did it and it was fine’, ‘in my day we were advised to do X’, etc.

Personally, I did lots and lots of reading, looked at co-sleeping statistics etc and made my decision based on that.

You seem to have decided ahead of time that babies don't sleep on their backs (because that's what an older generation who had put their babies to sleep on their fronts said?). My six week old isn't a great sleeper but I have no idea if he'd sleep better on his front - it's never occurred to me to even try putting him down that way. Given how many babies hate tummy time I really don't think they're all happier that way!

If a baby isnt sleeping I don't know how I would assume that they would sleep if on their fronts - unless I'd put them on their front which I wouldn't do. I would just assume they weren't sleeping because, well, newborn. I think a majority of babies would much rather sleep on their mothers at all times, ideally with milk on demand.

So I don't think advice should be given about non back sleeping babies as it encourages desperate mothers to think that that is the issue with their sleep, a bit like the people who think early weaning will cure sleep problems.

Finding this a very interesting discussion. My baby isn't great on his back (reflux) but will at least sleep a bit at times. I think I understand a bit where the OP is coming from though simply from reading all the comments about raising the head end of the crib - I know everyone is saying it with the best of intentions and it has worked for their child, but for some babies (mine!) it makes not a jot of difference and it's frustrating to read it so blithely suggested several times as if people wouldn't have already tried that rather well known advice early on! Really not meaning to offend anyone who suggested it, just saying I can see what PPs mean about how unhelpful it feels to have guidelines bring parroted back to you if they just aren't working gog your child and your desperate for a solution. Don't know what the answer is though.

I've always worried lots about SIDS and am horrified by the 1 in 250 statistic. I daren't even watch the Anne Diamond clip as I imagine I'll find it too distressing. Can't even begin to imagine what it's like to live through it and my deepest sympathies to those who have.

You seem to have decided ahead of time that babies don't sleep on their backs

This is her third child so I doubt this is accurate.

Actually it seems to me that she's decided that since her other children preferred sleeping on their fronts this one will too - hence it being a certainty at four days that there is no other possible reason why this baby won't settle.

Given that newborns have curved spines I can't sort of see the logic of why they don't like being on their backs.

the reality is that we (mums of babies that wont back sleep) will never leave our non-back sleeping babies cry in their cot, nope, we will pick them up, nurse them, comfort them and rest them on us so they can get some rest EVERY TIME, even when i am so sleep deprived that my head is falling places, i see double and im having lucid dreams/borderline halluzinations.

Get a Chicco Next2Me cot. It attaches to the side of the bed. I breastfed the baby lying on my side on my bed, baby lying on her side in the cot. Once fed she'd fall asleep and could be easily rolled onto her back. The less transferring/shifting/adjusting you need to do, the better.

It also might be the swaddling. DC1 needed it to calm down, DC2 absolutely hated it and was sleeping with arms free from a week old. Just because your first two did X doesn't mean this one will. Be open minded.