'helping' my DD at the expense of my DS

[Hotpants]

My DD14 goes to Cadets. She can be socially awkward & this has been really good for her, she has made some nice friends. Her younger brother (DS12) has been DESPERATE to start and has been waiting impatiently (for over a year) until he is old enough. He can start in September and after such a long wait he is really excited about starting.
However DD has spoken to DH about how she does not want DS to join and would rather stop going... so DH wants us to find an alternative cadet thing for him to go to. I know that this particular cadets is the one that DS really wants to go to and feel that would be really unfair on him. DD's fear is that DS (who is more gregarious & makes friends more easily) would steal her friends/cramp her style. But I think that her cadet friends are good friends who would not drop her like that. Also new 'recruits' are trained together so her brother would have his own set of friends. Rather than separating them I think we should acknowledge her fear, talk to DS about being sensitive to DD's anxiety (I think he would, he knows that she finds it hard to make friends) and try to support DD through that anxiety - so that she will see that her friends will not drop her (she has made a real connection esp with one of them so I feel sure they will not). I think it would be a valuable life lesson and reinforce her self-worth to see that good friends will still like her even if she has a more socially confident brother. I also want them to have shared experiences as they are growing up.
But DH thinks I am not being sensitive to DD's social anxieties. He has likened this to my childhood where I had a beautiful perfect older sister and my parents did nothing to stop her crushing me - but the difference there was that my more confident sibling was unkind & made me feel inferior (& then my insecurities were dismissed by my parents who said what were they supposed to do, curtail her blossoming?). Is DH right, am I doing the same to my DD?
I think not because, although I think DS should be allowed to join her at cadets, I am not dismissing her anxiety and I think we should talk with DS about being sensitive to this etc.
Or am I recreating history here?

that the DS could do something else

DD, I meant

It's going to be tough but if you don't want to inadvertently ruin your future relationship with your son then let him join
Your daughter has been there a while and completed different courses/skillsets so will be of a different rank to a new comer/DS. There are always more than one course available in cadets and just put them on separate course etc. There is usually quite a large number of cadets there and unlikely they will be sitted cheek by jowl all night long, so that allows both of them the freedom to be cadets from each other.

I agree with the majority of the posts on here. DS should join the same cadet group and DD needs your support. I liked the idea of a 4 weeks trial period then a review however I do worry this would be colluding with DD's unreasonable anxieties (and honestly, it would be difficult to expect DS to leave at that point).

DD also needs to learn it's not 'her cadets', by agreeing to her demands now, you're not setting her up for the future where she will not be able to dictate who can and can't join clubs she's a member of (or even thinking ahead to relationships in school or work). It's an important lesson to learn how to navigate in this social world.

"She needs to learn early in life that male needs always trump female's."

I really don't think that applies in this situation, I agree normally it is females who have to make way for the men, but no one is asking her to step aside.

This is tricky and I sympathise. My children are similar ages with a similar dynamic. My daughter was always a very good swimmer and was a member of a club which she loved. My son joined a couple of years later, was better at it than she was, got moved through the ranks quite quickly and got a lot of recognition for his achievements. She gave it up. I should point out that they get on really well - it's just that the swimming was her "thing" away from her more gregarious, successful younger brother.

I wonder if there isn't a bit more to it, actually. I'm not diagnosed but have many autistic traits, and what I have realised about how I behave in social situations is that it is, to an extent, performative. I can function quite well socially, but I am speaking, using facial expressions and using body language that I believe from years of observation to be appropriate to the situation. In a sense, I'm putting on a different "me". And it works - people respond well and seem to like me.

That may sound ridiculous, I don't know. But it's what I do. I've done it since I was at school.

It is hard, sometimes impossible, to do this around members of my family. I feel as though they know how I really am, and therefore can see what I'm doing and how false it is. Their observation freezes me up so that I cannot be the "me" that I need to be in social situations.

For example, I would not want to join a book group that my mother is in, even though I get on well with my mum and I would love to join a book group.

And at 14 I would have hated for a sibling to have come into a group where I felt a had a place and was comfortable.

So I may be projecting, and I can absolutely see that, in a "normal" family dynamic, the DS in this situation might have a perfect right to join the group, but I do sympathise with the DD.

"She needs to learn early in life that male needs always trump female's."

Oh for gods sake quit it with that. The younger sibling could very well have been a sister and the responses would be exactly the same. Stop trying to twist everything in to a feminist issue when some things blatantly aren’t.
Nobody is asking her to do anything. She can still go to the club.

You dd will have plenty of opportunities to learn ‘change happens’ this may be one of only a few opportunities she has to learn she can be successful socially. Your NT DS has all the natural advantages in life I think you should allow her to shine

Exactly. I think many posters don’t understand social anxiety or autism. DD struggles and has found people & a place where she is happy - she want this one space to be ‘hers’ . NT, outgoing, DS could easily be happy in another group.

Social anxiety doesn't seem to be given any much leeway on MN.

As with the thread about dd2's anxiety over dd1's bf staying overnight, the message is always suck it up, buttercup. Extroverts always win.

Did he always want to join Cadets, and always want to join this branch? If his enthusiasm for either has come about as a result of DDs involvement, I can totally understand where she is coming from.

Nobody is asking her to do anything. She can still go to the club

No, they’re not asking...they’d be TELLING her that she’ll no longer longer have the space to be ‘cadetDD’ because her brother would be there and she couldn’t be ‘that person’.

Yes, she can still go to the club, but she wouldn’t want to, because she can’t be ‘CadetDD’ if he is there.

One of them needs this space, one of them wants to go. Need over rules want. DS will soon settle into a different group.

FFS, I have diagnosed social anxiety (and many autistic traits), and I think the OP would be doing her daughter a disservice by going along with what she wants here. All this would do is teach the daughter that she should avoid any situation where she might feel uncomfortable, but avoidant behaviour does not help in the long run. It would also leave doubts that her friends would prefer her to her brother.
It may seem like the easy route (for the daughter), but that isn't always the best way.

Your DD needs to learn that the world does not exist for her benefit. Your H is on course to turn her into the worst sort of snowflake, who will grow up believing that her 'problems' mean everyone has to give way to her and indulge her.
And your son will never forgive you if you stop him going, because you will have demonstrated very clearly that his sister is more important than he is, and that it's acceptable for her to spoil things he wants, because she's 'special' and 'sensitive' whereas he can just cope with disappointment...

'Social anxiety' isn't a free pass to fuck things up for other people, though. There are going to be times in this girl's life where someone else's wishes/needs clash with hers, and that person may have a More Important (or at least more fashionable) issue than hers, so she won't be able to pull out the 'special status' card.

I went to cadets as a preteen/teen and loved it. Until my (older) brother was forced to join by my DF. Even though it didn't last long it ruined it for me. But my brother was a twat, complete stereotypical preteen/teen (immature) boy with his constant fart jokes, willies, fannies, being daft and disrespectful (which ironically is why my DF made him go).

I'd made myself a 'cadets' persona, where I felt more outgoing, confident and had a nice group of friends (both boys and girls) and I went from being happy and social to being in his shadow and having him play tricks on me and tell stories/lies etc.

I'm not saying your son will be so difficult, but just having him there may have a big impact on her. I'd be more on your side if there was an extra year or two between them, so more distance in maturity and age, but if he's confident and self-assured and she's not then in some aspect they will overlap.

Why does he want to go to that specific one? Can you try get your DD to voice her specific concerns and help her with them?

Don’t disadvantage DS! Why shouldn’t he be allowed to join the unit he wants just because his sister says so? New children will be coming anyway, what difference does it make to her if one of them is her brother.

I do hope your DS can go op if you're still reading. For every story someone has of their sibling overshadowing them at an activity originally just for them there will be a story from someone who was in your ds's position who still resents it. There is a way forward where they can both go to this cadets, you and your dh need to find it with both your DC.

Hi Former SeaCadet here (cadet and instructor).
Firstly, talk to the instructors at the unit you are at. There are lots of families with multiple DC's at the same unit. This is nothing new. If your DD is established in the unit then she should already be a rank or two higher than DS will begin as. If its a medium to large unit then they should be fine, with different friendship groups. If it's a small unit or your DD tends to hang out with the cadets that are younger than herself then you may get more of an issue/overlap. The unit may also divide into "Divisions" or equivalent, for example in my old unit we had "port" and "starboard", a good unit will split siblings between these. Then their experience shouldn't overlap on the standard unit drill night. I would suggest you talk to DD and DS together and agree to some rules. Eg. They do not discuss personal/home stuff/anything embarrassing at the unit/with shared friends. Secondly, courses/weekends/weeks away would they be ok going away together? Would DD get priority on some courses because she's older and DS will get the opportunity again/next year? Set them an annual budget of how many days they can go on courses for eg I'd say those getting the most out of cadets do at least 4 weekends (2 days/~£20) a year + 2 week long courses (5-7 days ~£80 (onshore normal)-300(offshore voyage))- note my prices are a few years out of date and only for sea cadets. So you're looking at say, 18-22 days "budget" for them to choose what they're going on but you know you're being fair to both even if DD goes on loads of courses in one burst, DS could choose a load of summer courses. If cost of courses is an issue there are normally plenty of bursaries - no one is excluded because they can't afford it.
Maybe negotiate with DS to do one drill night at all the local units? He may find he actually likes a different one more. This has happened a lot with siblings in my experience!

OP I think it would be useful for yorr DD to let DS go. I'm naturally a very anxious person, it never helps to give into the anxiety and by stopping your DS going you'll just be feeding the 'reality' that she can't keep friends. Have a word with your DS. I think you will have huge regrets isf you stop him going.

teaandtoast I think that's a really unfair comment as it's got nothing to do with extroverts or introverts. The one thing it does have in common with the other recent thread you mentioned is one person feeling their wishes should control what another person does.

Well OP if you’ve already decided then why ask?

Your DD has social challenges that your DS does not face. As a sufferer of social anxiety and possible autism she will have more ‘opportunities’ to deal with it than you can possibly imagine.

But they’re your kids and you know best of course! All anyone on here can do is offer an opinion based on a wee snapshot.

I think ds should go.

And it will teach dd that she isn’t the Center of the family unit . Your dh need to back off from being her enforcer.

Hmmm
Well I do have a child with autism and I would require a more detailed explanation for why she wants to prevent her brother being there. It’s also very unlikely that a bunch of 14yo girls will leave her for a 12yo boy. Especially as there is a years difference in maturity between boys and girls at those ages so the gap will be more like 3 years than 2 years.
I would have major reservations about this request. I wouldn’t like my child to grow up to think they can just ask for anything, no matter how unreasonable or detrimental to others. We all know these types of adult CFs.
Also, my kids are similar ages, they are close but I think one of them would see this as a major “fuck you”from the other and they are of an age where they will not only remember but it will also impact their relationship with each other as adults.

Plus, the fact that she’ll only talk to your dh about this makes me think she’s sussed who she can manipulate and who she can’t.

Do you think your dd will leave? That would surely be disastrous.