Rise of measles

[crosstalk]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/european-measles-death-toll-hits-37-after-antivax-campaigns-ztmwl9f3q

Just saying

You didn’t answer the bit about what you’d say to the family of a child who died of measles.

@cath it's true though. Every anti-vaxxer I've ever spoken to bangs on relentlessly about toxins. And, like you, how we can prevent all diseases through good nutrition alone.
Funny how my professor of immunology friend has a very different view.

Cath, all that you've posted in response to my post ignores the major difference in rates of death and serious illnesses/disabilities resulting from illnesses such as measles, diphtheria, typhoid etc in the years before and after vaccines were introduced. You really cannot suggest that they are accounted for by things like better hygiene, drainage and nutrition.

Grammar to put it more simply for you (my previous post clearly weren’t simple enough)... have you considered that your body creates a fever to help vital elimination of toxins.

And have you considered that the fever itself can cause serious damage and indeed can kill?

yes but at what cost... because not only does this lead to prolonging the curreng illness but also causes subsequent illnesses to be more severe...

Nonsense. For several years I was prone to severe headaches. I took painkillers virtually every time - far from prolonging them, they usually got rid of them. Guess what, I no longer have severe headaches, nor have I been subject to myriad severe illnesses.

If vomiting is an attempt to eliminate toxins, how do you account for travel sickness? Surely if a child needs to eliminate them, logically they should be being sick irrespective of whether they're in a vehicle or not? And if travel produces the toxins, shouldn't other people in that vehicle also need to throw up?

all that you've posted in response to my post ignores the major difference in rates of death and serious illnesses/disabilities resulting from illnesses such as measles, diphtheria, typhoid etc in the years before and after vaccines were introduced

Please refer to the graphs I posted last night. Similar trends also found with diphtheria and typhoid

Travel sickness is a different phenomenon all together. Cure: get out of the car and walk about

Yes and look at the nutritional status and societal/economic factors/, lack of clean water, effective sewage etc etc etc etc over this period to see how a toxic overload and unsanitary conditions, and nutrient deficiency’s would have contributed to that. Or is that concept too complicated for you to grasp

@Cathmidston

We can't say that all the countries in Africa has sorted out nutrition and sanitation... yet they have managed to work towards polio eradication through vaccine. To echo you - "Or is that concept too complicated for you to grasp?"

And headaches have different causes...but generally muscle tension etc... so therefore pain killers used in this instance aren’t interefering with a specific elimination/immune reaction.

*have

Touché ... however.... In areas where there have been intensive vaccination campaigns these children, though less likely to develop measles, are actually more likely to die of other illnesses. Their susceptibility to other illnesses has increased

www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5847a2.htm

Sorry, that link was in relation to more recent evidence on the question of the effect of vaccination on child deaths.

Serbska May I also suggest you research the prevalence of vaccine induced polio in India

Going to have to call [citation needed] on vaccinated children in Africa being more likely to be infected

Cath, you are, like many anti-vaxxers, being selective in your choice of evidence. Whilst it may have been the case that reporting rates for infectious illnesses were more unreliable in the UK in the first half of the 20th century, that can't be said of more recent evidence.

Deaths from measles in Europe increased significantly in 2016/17. Nearly all the recorded deaths were amongst people who had not been vaccinated. It is significant that a large proportion were in Romania, where there has been a downward trend in vaccination caused by a lack of vaccine supplies, difficulty in getting them to rural parts of the country and minority groups, and a vocal anti-vaccine campaign supported by a religious pro-life movement.

"these children, though less likely to develop measles, are actually more likely to die of other illnesses. Their susceptibility to other illnesses has increased"

That's not the case at all. Because fewer children die of measles, there are more catching other diseases, and so more die from them, with increase in expected mortality rate.

I still can't believe there are people saying they will vaccinate their kids against measles (now there's an outbreak) but mumps isn't serious.....despite all the posters who are giving examples of how mumps has permanently changed their or their friend's lives and the poster who has repeatedly posted the high chances of horrible side effects (1 in 7 chance of viral meningitis etc). My friend's baby was in hospital with viral meningitis last week. I can assure you it was very serious.

No doubt these people would get their kids vaccinated against mumps if there was an outbreak and reports of side effects and complications in the press.

Which is completely missing the point as vaccination schedules are there to prevent mass outbreaks

But I think there is no point arguing with these individuals. Their mind has been made up - they've Googled it.

Cath this is where phrasing makes all the difference. More likely to die of other diseases could mean cause of death is more likely to be of a disease other than measles - well of course! Doesn't mean increased chance of death overall

Flashing beacon ..how can I possibly comment as I don’t even know why your child has needed a blood transfusion or what his condition is? Chronic? Acute?

Are you thinking there are situations where a dr says someone needs a blood transfusion but the patient might not? It must be hard believing you know better than the entire medical profession not just individual doctors.
I am genuinely pleased you have healthy children though, all sarcasms aside.

@Flashingbeacon sigh..
Just because you haven’t heard of it doesn’t mean that it isn’t a ‘thing’. You may find this link useful but there’s been quite a bit of official research on the subject along with its benefits
www.pennmedicine.org/for-patients-and-visitors/find-a-program-or-service/center-for-transfusion-free-medicine/about-the-center/advantages

But thanks for your last comment

scaevola I should have explained that better.
In two selected groups of children. The ones who were vaccinated had less measles but more actual deaths from illness after a set period, than those that hadn’t been vaccinated

Do you have a source for that claim?

Sigh. all I got from that link was that drs and medical research’s are working really hard to make life safer for people. Not sure how it’s relevant. I’d those particular people said it was the right course would you believe them? Or would it depend if they’d had a vaccine? Where do you draw the line?
Who do you believe?

If this wasn’t about something so fucking serious to the entire population it would be like the best parking thread ever.

But it’s scary that people have such little social conscience and awareness actually exist.