To think you can’t really get a decent PT job unless you already work there

[Metoodear]

So following on from my post about working PT I getting loads of people saying yep rally easy to woke pt I get 30, 40k pro rata blah blah however these are often women who have worked for a company for a number of years then reduced after maternity leave i am also not talking about PT were you drop one day but are still working 9-5 four days a week

This kind of PT working is not what I was talking about I am talking about after having done a qualification then after having 2-5 years out of work after being a SHAM trying to find a PT job that is under 25 hours a week that is not in a school admin or retail in a company you never worked for
i am a support worker but have had to take a job at the lower end of the pay scale in order to secure 20 hours a week working i have friends that have degrees in physiology ect who work in admin and a friend who has a degree in a second language but is really struggling to find anything other than admin or work in a school for less than 25 hours after being at home for8 years

I myself have been looking for another job since I got my curroone and you just don’t see PT ones

Momo thank you for your kind words. In DD’s class I only know of one couple who both work full time (and unfortunately the bahviour of their DC, who has been at the same nursery/school as DD for years, isn’t a great advert for children being in full time childcare - very bright, bored and disruptive, causing no end of problems for other children. DD can’t stand this child. But I know that’s just one child). Everyone else either works part time, part time term time only, or there’s one parent at home. Nearly all have grandparent help as well. I know of several families who are barely at home for the entire summer.

Plus, and I know there’s nothing to be done about this, DD is an only child, very few of her friends are. So that kind of feels even harder. If she has no friends at holiday club, and doesn’t manage to make friends, she doesn’t even have a sibling to hang out with.

I am in the middle of applying for full time work after years of working freelance, not very effectively TBH. And whilst I’m excited about the jobs I’m applying for I am very aware that the impact on our family life will be huge and, certainly at first, isn’t going to feel worth it at all. I come from a family of professional, hardworking women and I know this is good to do, and good for DD in so many ways. But I wish the system was other than what it is.

I had a fabulous part-time job a while ago, with a wonderful manager who was so flexible, I didn’t even have to ask, she would offer up changes before I’d even thought about it (when DD went from nursery to school she was straight in there telling me I could change my working week to suit school hours). It worked. Yet I know other managers in the same industry who can’t even begin to make that work, you’d be turned down immediately. All their staff are young and/or childless. And it’s very hard to know when you’re applying what you’ll end up with.

But thank you for your post, it has helped a lot.

I think it's having the break from work that makes it hard- I had technically 5 years as a sahm and despite doing loads of voluntary work this break made me so unemployable
If applied for lots of interesting part time jobs and didn't get anywhere
I ended up working in a pub for a year and just having a current employer on my cv got my foot in the door

I see what you mean. I teach full time and there are numerous part time teachers at my school (secondary), however, all are people who were full time and have then gone part time.

It's very unusual for us to advertise a part time position.

Going by the facts though, part time working has increased from around 10% to 30% or the workforce over the last 50 years. Over more recent years, there have been massive leaps forward in terms of far more favourable maternity provision (a year, compared to 3 months when I too my first) paternity leave (non existent til relatively recently) Rights to request flexible working for anyone ( the right to request it didn’t exist when I had my kids and when it did come into force it was limited to parents of young children. Far better now, because parents shouldn’t have more rights than anyone else to request FW) We even have transferable parental leave now (though the take up is depressingly low) There are also free nursery hours at age 3 and in some cases age 2 now. All these things make it easier for parents to balance things. No system is perfect but from where I’m standing it’s a damn sight better than when I was having my babies. I’d have given my right arm for dh to even have a week off when my kids were born.

So let’s get things in perspective. Yes there may be room for improvement, but there are more opportunities out there than previously (and let’s not even think about my mums generation when the absolute norm was Dad working full time and mum being a home. There wasn’t even regulated childcare...)

I do agree with PP that in cases where people are really specific about what they want (eg taking several years off work, then returning at the same level on good pay but demanding specific hours / days) then frankly you’re probably going to be disappointed. Work has got to meet the needs of the employer, clients or customers too!

I’ve been at home for 7 years. Two children with autism meant leaving my FT job. I can’t find childcare for my youngest as he’s quite challenging and has high anxiety. I do a work from Home role that is self employed. I haven’t been able to find anything else out there and I love near a big city. I’d like something that is permanent so I get some sort of pension but our circumstances don’t allow so am reliant on my dh in many ways and the hope we don’t divorce as I’ll be left with very little.

Lots of that is zero hours though, which isn’t suitable for family life either.

Maternity benefits are better but it’s still set up to get women into full time work. You say it’s better now than when women had to stay home - is it? It may be for women like yourself but I would’ve been better off under the old system! That’s a purely selfish point of view as obviously many weren’t happy, but my point is the new system doesn’t suit those of us who lean towards a more traditional family life (not saying everyone should aspire to that). I personally would like to see better balance for everyone, so that we all have the options that suit us.

Yes, absolutely a million times better than yesteryear. Remember the wider context: women having to give up work on marriage. Women being barred from certain professions. Women not being allowed to take out a mortgage alone. All based on a patriarchy where wives actually belonged to their husbands.

I’m in favour of every bit of legislation which promotes equality, and encourages parents to have more balanced rights about caring/ earning responsibilies.

What couples then choose to do on a personal basis is then up to them. But in terms of wider society yes, things are absolutely enormously better than when people were pigeonholed into a certain role on the basis of whether they had a penis or not!

Again, for you. I’d have been perfectly happy being expected to give up work, have children and stay at home. Like I said, the new system works for you personally. But those of us who would’ve benefitted enormously from that system aren’t necessarily happy with the new one.

All the newer system has done is created a race to the bottom and devalued the minimum wage.

I think people just need to be realistic. I would also agree that things are improved. I’m lucky to have a job that allows me to work ‘part time’ - 4 days a week, and take generous periods of maternity leave, but I am also aware that when I go for my next more senior role - it may be full time or nothing. Swings and roundabouts.

I’m very very glad I’m no longer living in an age where it’s expected I stay at home.

In my experience actually there is a lot of childcare provision that’s flexible and supportive employers - but these are also businesses. You pay to reserve a place, you are paid to perform a role. If you don’t want to or can’t fit to those requirements someone else will. Supply and demand!

Blair - can I just ask. If you would have been perfectly happy to stay at home and give up work why don’t you do that? Surely that’s a lifestyle choice / decision? I don’t really see how the ‘new system’ as you put it, prevents you from taking that option - but obviously living within means of a single income?

I think you’re confusing the wider social context with the personal Blair.

I don’t prefer the ‘new system’ as you call it because it benefits me personally. I prefer it because it places people, women and men, on a more equal status. I’m not in favour of societies where groups are marginalised based on gender.

If I decide to stop work tomorrow and stay home, It doesn’t mean I’d want a return to society of 70 years ago. It would mean I’d still want a forward looking society, simply that I’d be making a personal life style choice

Surely that’s a lifestyle choice / decision? I don’t really see how the ‘new system’ as you put it, prevents you from taking that option - but obviously living within means of a single income?

Because it’s hard to support a family on a single income. But we plan to have me giving up in the next few years, when DP has advanced in his career.

I agree that a lot has changed for the better but the variance can be huge. For instance, one company in my industry is congratulating itself for introducing a certain kind of flexible working that has been the norm in a different company in the same industry for over 15 years. Another has amounts of flexible working that others would insist simply wouldn’t work.

I think that some simply have the mindset that flexible or part time work is inherently a Bad Thing and that’s that. And these are companies dominated by women! (Though not at the top, wonder why??). And that rigidity is reflected by some on this thread, that women are idiots for wanting to balance family and work life. For men I should think it’s even worse. Such a culture of presenteeism.

So how would the ‘old system’ have benefitted you more?

You’re conflating the two things - you want to be able to stay at home, but can’t / don’t want to because of money, but say the system won’t support you to do this?

The ‘system’ hasn’t determined your / your DH’s income...

Since because the average job in the 1950s supported a family of five. NMW was supposed to support a family. Look at it now.

Women are still trapped though momo by financial constraints, not social ones.

No one is being rigid @rivertam - just pointing out that flexibility and compromise is required on both sides.

You may have missed this but I work part time and this is my balance with job and my family. Not being rigid at all - just pointing out (as have many) that the very prescriptive term time, school hours, flexible working part time jobs for those who were previously SAHM or even not - are not the norm because it’s not what is needed for most businesses / organisations to operate effectively and efficiently. That’s not being rigid, it’s being sensible.

@blair - our ‘basic needs’ have increased hugely as costs since 1950s. It’s fair to say it was a far simpler way of life.

We could easily survive on one wage. I don’t want to compromise my life and our quality of life for that.

It’s about choices.

I'm on my third part time job since having DD, I was recruited into each role as PT.

Same here purplemunkey! Plus one that I was offered and turned down and a couple more I went for and didn't get but let's gloss over that.

However, I never stopped working. And I suspect that's more the OPs problem. It isn't that there's not senior and/or professional part time work out there, because there absolutely is, and more people work part time than ever. And there are clearly jobs being recruited for as part time. But you can't necessarily get one when you've been out of the workforce years, any more than you'd automatically walk into a desirable full time role after the same gap.

I personally would like to see better balance for everyone, so that we all have the options that suit us.

The old system did an absolutely shit job of delivering that though blair. The father working FT and the mother spending years not working at all or in a little job for pin money, neither having much choice about it, isn't really any closer to the system you want than what we have now.

Part time work is more common now and it's more, not less common in senior and professional roles. It's very clearly not working for everyone, and fwiw my family wouldn't want a 2 x FT workers setup either. But let's be careful with the rose tinted glasses.

We could easily survive on one wage. I don’t want to compromise my life and our quality of life for that.

I mean, that’s just untrue. We don’t have cars, haven’t gone abroad for about five years, don’t drink, smoke or spend excessively and it’s still bloody difficult.

You can’t cherry pick the bits of history out of context that suit you personally!

Anyone who says they wish they were giving birth in the 1950s so that the norm would then be to never work again, or at most only ever work for pin money.... hmm, I’m sure they wouldn’t really want a life with all the 1950s societal norms

I agree OP & this is one of the main reasons I worked pt after having DC1 & kept my toe in as I had to give up my career as pt/flexi etc is just not an option in that industry.

The 2 pt roles I had were quite low paid but built on my existing skills & gave me new skills. 2 yrs on, I now have a new role 3 days a week which is flexi & walking distance. It’s 35k pro rata with a ceiling of 40k & then I would need to up responsibility & be ft for more money.

Sorry - it’s untrue that my family couldn’t survive on one wage? I’m quite confident we could...

If people want traditional family life then thats entirely up to them. But just accept career progression and income will take a hit. But let's not pretend the system is somehow unfair to those who choose to be sahms/ work pt.

What does need to change is the gender pay gap, so the mother isn't the default choice if the family want a sahp/ one pt. As does childcare provision, especially for those with dc with needs that can't be met in mainstream childcare. And zero hours should be banned except in the case of very well paid, highly skilled jobs. But we're hardly going to solve the gender pay gap by promoting the idea that mothers all want nice little jobs that fit with the school run.

blair as a lone parent with only my salary to support us, I'm hardly going to agree the system favours me over a sahp who only wants/ needs pt work. You had/ have the choice to ft just like I do. I don't have the choice to sahp/ go pt if I want any quality of life or future career. If you only want pt work that's a perfectly fine decision too, but let's not pretend the system is in my favour.

And I will just add that I wanted to
work as I enjoy it. Ideally when I earn more DH could do 4 days as would I.