To think you can’t really get a decent PT job unless you already work there

[Metoodear]

So following on from my post about working PT I getting loads of people saying yep rally easy to woke pt I get 30, 40k pro rata blah blah however these are often women who have worked for a company for a number of years then reduced after maternity leave i am also not talking about PT were you drop one day but are still working 9-5 four days a week

This kind of PT working is not what I was talking about I am talking about after having done a qualification then after having 2-5 years out of work after being a SHAM trying to find a PT job that is under 25 hours a week that is not in a school admin or retail in a company you never worked for
i am a support worker but have had to take a job at the lower end of the pay scale in order to secure 20 hours a week working i have friends that have degrees in physiology ect who work in admin and a friend who has a degree in a second language but is really struggling to find anything other than admin or work in a school for less than 25 hours after being at home for8 years

I myself have been looking for another job since I got my curroone and you just don’t see PT ones

i think 5 days per week exists because that's what most males want to do and historically they have been more senior in the workforce....its a sort of long established habit.

If you considered it from a more economic standpoint you might want to employ more PT people because you would then have experts in different things and not have to pay them for periods when you didnt need them (most people can pad a job out to last 5 days even if they dont realise they are doing this)

I’m not asking for the moon on a stick, personally, but there are simply no part-time jobs in my industry for me to apply for.

And it’s not just about having children, which is, as you say, a choice - people can have other caring responsibilities as well. My mum didn’t choose to become seriously ill. I have spent a lot of time caring for her. I was working freelance then (but earning peanuts) so could do it. Once I get a full time job, like my sibling - well, I don’t know what will happen then. She’s fine now but inevitably will become ill again. I guess one or other of us may have to jack in work to care for her. There’s no choice there, no planning.

I read the other day that in Germany companies leave a woman’s job open for 3 years. Clearly works there, but I’m sure there would be shrieks of horror here.

It would just be nice to see some openness to new ways of working that benefit anyone, regardless of sex or responsibilities, who would like a better work/life balance and still be able to afford a decent standard of living. Don’t you think?

dreaming absolutely. I once covered someone’s job and after about a month or six weeks I asked to go down to four days a week, there’s simply wasn’t enough to do. And one of my colleagues said ‘I always thought X (the woman I was covering) made a meal of that job’. I crossed over with her sometime later and she certainly made a big song and dance of being ever so busy.

I'm a contractor, but working in-house as part of a team alongside perm employees - lots of places have asked me if I'd consider a perm role there. In 8 years of being a contractor I have never once had a company that didn't accep me working there on a PT basis (4 day week) - I don't have DC, but work PT due to health reasons. I've been very firm when negotiating with a company about contract terms, that whilst I'm willing to negotiate day rate and length of contract, that working PT is a non negotiable. I've been pleasantly surprised that no one has refused thus far - and when trying to persuade me to join them on a perm basis they've all said that PT would be absolutely no problem. That said it can be a long hours culture at times, so it's a 4 day week, not 32h contracted hours (as it would be if I was perm), and that means no paid overtime. I suspect it's driven by the same factors that enable me to charge a high day rate - supply and demand. There's a glut of demand for senior people with a given skillset and professional experience, and not much supply. I suspect if it was a buyer's market then I'd find it much more challenging to negotiate contracts oh my terms.

That’s more to do with mindset though. Some people can spin anything out into a big deal! Tbh employers these days are looking for sharp workers who get the job done. It benefits no one (least of all employer) to have lower productivity.

The idea of keeping a job open for 3 years... again, it sounds attractive if you personally want 3 years off. What about the person covering the job, who can’t get a mortgage because they haven’t got the security? And what if after 3 years the post holder decides they want another child straight away and 3 more years off? It must be a nightmare for an employer who may well have a succession of temporary people, because who wants to do someone else’s job for 3 years with no rights at the end of it? There must be a huge knock on. Eg I wonder how parents in the U.K. would feel if their child’s teacher disappeared off for 3 years and a succession of temporary replacements covered the role? Imagine if that was your child going through exam years.

At the end of the day a system has to be balanced to work for employers, employees and clients. I think the system is about right now... up to a year off, transferable parental leave and the right to request FW (and before anyone jumps on me I personally didn’t benefit from any of those because they didn’t exist when I had my kids. Like I say- we’ve come a long way.

The right to request flexible working is somewhat toothless. The employer needs only to make a business case, and this isn't difficult for someone who's at all switched on.

In general though, when we have some of the highest working hours and lowest productivity in Western Europe, that suggests there might be things we could improve. And it's a fact that talented women with skills the economy needs sometimes find when they have significant caring responsibilities that either they can't combine them with work or they're unwilling to do so without more flexibility/PT than they can get. None of us benefit from that.

minge genuinely interested, how else would you work flexible requests? Not just so that smaller businesses aren't disadvantaged, but so that other employees at bigger companies aren't either?

momo27 - agree, but what my kids would benefit from potentially are 2 PT teachers both experts in complimentary areas. But this seems way to hard for many employers to get their heads round.

Dreaming- a large proportion of teachers are part time- i believe over 20% and among women its over 25 %. So I don’t think that a particular issue. Neither do I think a jobshare is in itself a benefit.. sure, 2 excellent teachers are great, but no better no worse than 1 excellent full timer

Anyway a job share is entirely different to the scenario I was describing where someone could potentially ‘block’ a post from being taken up by someone else for years and years on end, if they took 3 years off with every child and the post was covered by a succession of temporary workers. Someone in a temporary job is less likely to be as well qualified or skilled because the best candidates are going to go for a job where they aren’t going to have to move over in 3 years. Lack of job security in itself has a huge knock on in terms of not being able to raise a mortgage or perhaps not making you feel you could start a family.

I’m all for improvements in working practices - I’m not suggesting the U.K. is perfect but whenever people highlight other countries that are allegedly more productive, more family friendly etc they fail to accept that there are other aspects which wouldn’t suit them. Eg higher taxation. Or, in the examples some people have given, childcare is massively subsidised which is great, but you’ll often find in these countries that it’s much more the culture for women to put their children in nursery and return to work. Which is precisely what some posters are saying they don’t want!
Impossible to please everyone; it’s about balancing needs and wants in a way which works for employer, employee and clients

I agree that just because it is actually possible to find a decent PT job from scratch, it doesn't mean that it's an awful lot harder than negotiating a change in hours down from an existing FT job.

Ooh that's a very good question!

I think it needs to be answered within a wider context, rather than just looking at how to crowbar something into a system that isn't necessarily that well suited to it, if that makes sense? That is, we couldn't introduce legislation to make flexible working requests not the toothless thing they are now, and just leave it there and expect it to work. I've a horrible feeling we need real cultural change to address the problem.

I'm encouraged by the growth of flexibility and of wfh, for example, and I think we'll see more of the latter simply as more employers cotton on that they can pay for 80% of the space if everyone is expected to wfh once a week. Those are positive changes that are happening, and while obviously there are jobs where this isn't possible, we're very far from seeing it happen in every job where it is.

But we need to be looking to countries like Holland to see how they do it, identify best practice there. It's interesting because in respect of ML they have a lot less than we do, but they're much more likely to work part time. There are the obvious things that could be done as well like tax incentives to employers who facilitate home working (which assists us all since the fewer of us on the overcrowded roads and trains the better for everyone) and who can show they've granted a certain percentage of flexible working requests.

Minge- good points about honest, open comparison with other countries to see what they do and what actually works. It’s interesting your points about Holland. Swings and roundabouts isn’t it? - for some women greater availability of pt work would be a bonus, but on the other hand I can’t see shorter ML ever being reintroduced in the U.K. We’ve already had people complain on this thread that a year isn’t long enough- yet actually the U.K. is one of the most generous countries in terms of maternity legislation.

I think flexible working is definitely on the increase but for example I wasn’t given the option to do my pre baby job (Ops hospital manager) after ML 4 days a week. So I do something different.

But attitudes are changing - slowly - about which jobs can be done FT and PT. Even in historically v flexible working places like the NHS there is a culture of FT particularly for non clinicians!

I do agree in theory minge I just think on a practical level it wouldn't gain momentum. Jobs with the least pay/ worst conditions wouldn't improve on your suggestions, and I can't imagine those in them would be remotely concerned about improving the life balance of those who already have better pay and conditions.

I hope that YABU! Am currently applying for PT jobs!

This is what I mean by cultural change really hog. Jobs with the worst pay and conditions in our current system certainly don't see full benefit of things like flexible working requests, nor are people in them necessarily able to access basic legal rights, now. As we speak. Vital to highlight this when talking about how far we've come, how the UK could be worse etc. Would that people in the worst jobs not seeing the full benefits of a system were a reason for that system not to exist!

I see where you're coming from minge but some jobs are never going to accommodate everyone's flexible requests without disadvantage to others. Eg carers will still be needed morning and evening, cleaners will still be needed at 6am, retail will still need people in the eves and weekends.

Even if you brought in a living wage, you couldn't really hope to balance all those requests for the most popular shifts. Or, if you start offering higher pay to those willng and able to work the unpopular shifts, again you inadvertently shaft those who genuinely can't work the bad shifts.

It’s very difficult balancing everyone’s needs and wants. As a personal anecdote, I now manage so many part timers that things like running their appraisals are taking me significantly more time than if the team were full time. There are also some issues around communications and briefings which take more time. (And im pretty good at streamlining systems!)

So ironically, in my willingness to be accommodating of people’s requests to work flexibility, it’s actually now impacting negatively on me! And negative impact on existing workforce is a good enough reason to turn requests down ...

I was actually super surprised recently about PT work. I'd applied for a load of FT jobs and in each interview they said "so what hours are you looking for?" And I said "thought this was FT so assumed the usual hours?" And they've all said that they have Flexi hours and wouldn't mind hiring the right person PT. This was a shock to me as previously hadn't found this to be the case.

Yep I agree, I work3 days a week, but was there for almost 10 years full time before that, they’ve admitted if I left they’d get someone full time to replace me. I love my job but do feel a bit stuck sometimes as I’d never find these kind of hours and pay straight off somewhere else.

I applied for a full time job then talked them into letting me do it 4 days a week. I was overqualified for it really but gradually got promoted to a decent salary

Now I do school hours only and the rest from home once the children are in bed. I think there is an element of earning their trust/ proving your worth before you get full flexibility.

Momo Germany seems a pretty efficient country, I would be surprised if they hadn’t worked out a way to make holding jobs open for 3 years work. As far as I know it’s the law. Whether you have to take 3 years off I don’t know (though I think being at home for longer with young children is more of a cultural norm in Germany) but the issue here is that here is something that one country has made the law, such is the value they attach to it, and here we immediately assume it can’t work and point out all the impossibilities. Ditto Holland and part-time being the norm.

A closed mindset to new ideas. That is the only think that keep our employment market as it is, to the detriment of family life. When will we wake up and realise that what worked for men in the 50s isn’t how it has to be and isn’t necessarily the best way forward?

are those jobs using your skills, experiences and qualifications and renumerating you accordingly

YES. Since I had 7 years as SAHM, and moved into a different area I started back on junior payscale, but back on old pay scale after 15 months.

I know job hunting is depressing. Jobs that mean no childcare costs are hen's teeth.

I work part time 18 hours a week over 4 days, 10 mins from my home and they’re flexible about school runs/childcare issues. I am more than aware I’ve found the holy grail as it’s in my field, and stick with it despite the low pay, lack of actual work to do and annoying office politics.

As soon as my daughter is in secondary school I’m off though!

Like a previous poster I advertised a part time role, advertised as no fixed hours, hours and days open to discussion. It was decent pay and interesting work. The applicants we had all asked if it could be full time instead, and it went to one of those (obviously we expanded the volume of work). That experience really put me off advertising part time specifically. I asked some school mums who claimed to be out of the workforce because there were no part time jobs what would put them off applying for my vacancy and basically they wanted school hours 2 or 3 days a week with a paid leave allowance to cover all school holidays and inset days and they didn't think they would be offered 🤔 I was thinking of about 20 hours over at least 2 days, up to split over 5 with 5 weeks leave (but then I couldn't be off every time DH is off, they'd have to do a couple of weeks in holiday club...... .etc)