Is it a right to have Kids you can’t afford!?!

[KN2212]

I am totally fed up of listening to people complain about how broke they are after having kids. Babies and childcare are cripplingly expensive but that’s pretty much common knowledge, right?

I fell out with a long term friend of mine about a year ago. Since the birth of her DD all she did was complain about the situation she’d orchestrated.
Her and her (now ex) partner had no home of their own, low income, high debt and no savings when they decided to go ahead and have a child (though granted had been together for 7 years). The poor boyfriend busted his butt working 13 hour shifts 6 days a week in a call centre whilst they all lived in one cramped room at her parents and she complained he wasn’t doing enough. Due to her crippling shopping debts and inability to hold a job they were never going to make enough to live and knew that pre getting pregnant.

(Other friends are in similar situations, complaining about how they ‘can’t afford to go back to work’ because of childcare costs but equally can’t afford to live if they don’t go back to work!!! Come on and take some responsibility you knew this was going to be your situation.)

Whilst she was complaining over coffee one day about how the benefit system wasn’t giving her enough free money I called her out on her obvious poor planning and asked why she didn’t wait and save pre child. She got very defensive and said that they were never going to be able to afford a child due to their financial situation so why bother waiting?

It just got me thinking really hard, since when did having children become a right? It seemed so clear to her that she deserved to have a child despite not being able to afford one and that the government should now support her because she deserved to have her daughter.
Am I wrong in thinking that having children you can’t support is completely irresponsible and shitty and entitled?

I know a lot of women who want kids but are having to wait and plan and save and do it ‘the right way’ it seems unfair to them. When women like my ex friend do exactly what they want without planning and then hold the government over a barrel saying that their kids don’t have food and clothes. It just sucks like the children shouldn’t have to suffer but the tax payer shouldn’t have to pay for your unfair choices.

To clarify I have empathy for unplanned pregnancy’s no contraception is 100% but that’s not the kind of situation I’m talking about here. I’m talking about planned pregnancies.

But is it right for a child to be born into an already large family, living on benefits, whose parents can't lift themselves nor their children from poverty. It becomes our problem when the poverty affects their life chances, they need interventions and further taxes spent on them.

Typical MN. Op posts about a scenario where her friend is living in one room at her parents house with no real prospect of earning enough to improve their living arrangements as her partner is already working a six day week, and it morphs into “how dare you say having children is only for the wealthy??”, and even touches on eugenics, ffs!

I agree if you genuinely can’t afford then no don’t have them and yes everyone’s life can change easily and quickly so it’s not always easy to predict the future of course.
But if you really can’t afford then I agree you should not have.
But as I say it’s a matter of common sense you don’t need tons to still live nicely if you spend sensibly and don’t think your children must have everything new and everything they want.
I grew up in a country with very very little as a child but I loved my childhood and like most talk of making your own enjoyment and fun which too often seems as a past thing here.
A lot of people seem to think if they can’t afford the new phone or new iPad or laptop or designer clothes they are hard done by and see that they are entitled that’s often where the issues are too.

I know somebody who stopped working as soon as they got pregnant with their first, planned a second shortly after which she was only too happy for the government to pay for, now shes having her third this time as a single mother which was apparently unplanned yet she was taking no precautions. People like that have no right to moan about not being able to afford kids but that doesn't stop them I guess

We had massive debt when we had the kids because of the kids (fertility treatment!)

It’s fine, they don’t know, or care.

I hazard à guess that the ops friend falls in the category of wanting all the nice new shiny things when she can’t afford them which is why massive debt.
If she used common sense and didn’t want everything she can’t afford she could afford the child it’s just that she wastes money I’d think.
You don’t owe 35k on cards if you spend sensibly what you do have.

Asyouare. Your very right there are some out there that choose to have knowing the government must fund them which is where sadly it’s hard to stop with our current system.
However there are ways that can be implemented that would change things if a government child care system was in place as these parents that choose not to work would no longer have any way to avoid doing so if it was set up right.

"s if a government child care system was in place as these parents that choose not to work would no longer have any way to avoid doing so if it was set up right."

But why force people to work though? You're paying for their children to be looked after either way? Why not subsidise the parent rather than the childcare setting if the parent is happy to stay at home? What do you get by forcing the children into nurseries for their parents to do very low paid work?

My full-time childcare bill went from 500 pounds a month to 800 pounds a month in the space of 4 years. I haven't had a pay rise for 16 years. Sometimes financial matters are completely out of your hands. I still don't claim benefits though, even though I'm entitled to them.

I think we should think more about who can support children emotionally and physically. Money isn't everything. Some rich people are child abusers.

Just to clarify as I think this has been misunderstood. When I say ‘doing it the right way’ I mean being able to prove a home (rented or owned- no issue), food and clothing for a child before having one.

Life happens and you can’t be prepared for everything but you don’t get £35,000 of credit card debt overnight. If you get laid off or someone develops chronic illness (this happened in my house growing up) then that’s exactly what benefits are for. The unexpected, not the irresponsible informed choices.

Also to the poster commenting about unfair lending to the financially naive - that kind of denighability and blame passing is what’s wrong with our society. They may have leant it to her but she bloody spent it and when it was gone quit her job claiming anxiety and stress!!! My friend wasn’t financially naive she’s a bright girl who wanted stuff she couldn’t afford and bought it anyway chalking it up to a ‘future problem’ please don’t enable that behaviour with finger pointing at ‘big companies’ who may not be right but CERTAINLY aren’t the entire problem.

(She didn’t even borrow to live, like groceries or basics she bought designer thousand bound coats and handbags FFS)

While I'm at it, it is also okay to have a third (or fourth or fifth or whatever) child, EVEN IF THAT MEANS your older children won't have as much money lavished on them or will have to share a bedroom or won't get to do after-school activities

Sorry but I don't agree with this. Why would you put your own wants and needs above those of your child(ren)?

The thing is we all know how babies are made and how our bodies work, contraception is freely and widely available, we now have the morning after pill and for some even abortions. There is no reason to have more children than you can cope with or afford.

Yet there seems to be millions of women falling pregnant unexpectedly - unplanned pregnancies, contraception failures etc. Pull the other one!

In terms of reproduction we the UK are below replacement levels, and this is a most fundamental survival requirement for a society, so everybody who wants to have children and is able should be having them. We are in the throes of a baby recession, see clairetrees post above.

If we find we can't afford to support children and it is an excessive burden on our taxes, we ought to cut back on cruise missiles, jet fighters and some of the more frivolous medical treatments we pay for.

You sound judgy, but realistically it is your mentality that's taking us to the point where people will have to work until they're 80 quite soon because of a lack of human replenishment to do the jobs and pay for care/pensions.

imo, YABU.

If people waited until they could 100% afford every expense that comes with a child, they might never have one. Does this mean that only the most wealthy in society should be allowed to breed? You'll be torn a new arse for asking the question, because it really has nothing to do with you. I am a parent and have many parent friends and have never heard anyone constantly moan about being broke BECAUSE they've had kids.

The fact that you've described the benefit system as "free money" says it all.

YES, yabu.

What would you describe the benefit system as?

No one is saying you need to be able to afford 100% of every aspect of having a child. Maternity benefits exist for a reason!
But to have 35k on credit cards to buy designer handbags and living in a room at your parents house is completely irresponsible when having kids

What about people who could afford a child, even confidently went on to have a second kniwing that money would need to be managed more but completly do-able. Then circumstances changed completly unexpectedly and a load of other things happen which leaves them struggling and sad and going without so their lovely children don't miss out.

Lending is unfortunately targeted at those who can't afford it. I used to get the occassional letter offering me a loan from my bank. Since having to use my credit card and go to the limit of my overdraft every month I have had numerous emails from my bank offering me a loan. There's even now a permanent link to a loan application on the top of my in the red current account.

We're on a slippery slope once we start deciding who can and can't afford kids. I mean, who makes the decision? The government I assume, which means kids will be means tested or we're just going to stop paying for them.

Either way women and children will suffer. If you get pregnant through rape, for example, will you be expected to prove you were raped in order to access financial support for your child (actually, that's already happening isn't it?)

If your wealthy husband starts abusing you once you are pregnant are you allowed to leave? Will you have to prove the abuse?

And also, I actually think having children is a right. Women who suffer infertility wouldn't have so many issues with depression and mental health if their body wasn't made for children. The need for a child is generally driven by hormones and can't always be ignored.

I love how some people say "the government should pay for x, y and z". The government isn't a Scrooge McDuck character sitting on a huge pile of gold bullion. The government doesn't have any money. The citizens of the country put their money into the government who the allocates it to keep the country running. We dont currently put in enough keep the country running to the standard we want, hence why we borrow to make up the shortfall every year. So when you say "the government should pay" what you actually mean is you, me and everyone who already contributes else should pay more than we currently do.

I work in a school in a safeguarding role.
I come across many parents who make the choice to have a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th baby despite being unable to adequately feed and clothe the children they already have, even with support from the state and from voluntary agencies.

DH and I have always said we'd like a big family but will stop at two children as we would struggle to afford a third and it would be irresponsible. So I have to admit I do find it a bit frustrating when parents I work with announce they're pregnant with baby no 5 despite being happy not only to rely on benefits but for my colleagues at school and I to regularly provide their existing children with food, stationary, toiletries, tampons/sanitary towels, etc out of our own pockets.

I feel similarly frustrated when parents who are not working, in masses of debt, kids being upset by ballifs knocking at the door etc casually mention that they're getting another dog...it's the children and animals that suffer for their choices.

OP you are trying to say now that your post is just about one extreme example but it really isn't. Your post is titled

Is it a right to have kids you can't afford!?!

And you say

Other friends are in similar situations, complaining about how they ‘can’t afford to go back to work’ because of childcare costs but equally can’t afford to live if they don’t go back to work!!! Come on and take some responsibility you knew this was going to be your situation.

The situation your other 'friends' are in is a position that anyone in a low paying job without free childcare through family will be in. Do you think these people should just never be allowed to have children because they aren't wealthy enough?

Well they won’t get benefits any more minister

If people waited until they could 100% afford every expense that comes with a child, they might never have one

But some people do put having children over other important things. They are prepared to live in rented (poor) accommodation all their lives, work until they are 80 and have no pension to live off. But go ahead, have as many children as you want.

In an ideal world everyone would save x amount, become well established in their careers, own their own home and car etc before having a child.

In the real world, life happens. HTH.

Would you class someone having their fifth child in substandard accommodation whilst unable to adequately feed and clothe their existing children an incidence of life “just happening”, OutPinked?
We can’t control everything that happens to us, of course we can’t.
But we’re not all hapless victims of malign fate either.
Somewhere along the line you do have to exercise choice.