Is it a right to have Kids you can’t afford!?!

[KN2212]

I am totally fed up of listening to people complain about how broke they are after having kids. Babies and childcare are cripplingly expensive but that’s pretty much common knowledge, right?

I fell out with a long term friend of mine about a year ago. Since the birth of her DD all she did was complain about the situation she’d orchestrated.
Her and her (now ex) partner had no home of their own, low income, high debt and no savings when they decided to go ahead and have a child (though granted had been together for 7 years). The poor boyfriend busted his butt working 13 hour shifts 6 days a week in a call centre whilst they all lived in one cramped room at her parents and she complained he wasn’t doing enough. Due to her crippling shopping debts and inability to hold a job they were never going to make enough to live and knew that pre getting pregnant.

(Other friends are in similar situations, complaining about how they ‘can’t afford to go back to work’ because of childcare costs but equally can’t afford to live if they don’t go back to work!!! Come on and take some responsibility you knew this was going to be your situation.)

Whilst she was complaining over coffee one day about how the benefit system wasn’t giving her enough free money I called her out on her obvious poor planning and asked why she didn’t wait and save pre child. She got very defensive and said that they were never going to be able to afford a child due to their financial situation so why bother waiting?

It just got me thinking really hard, since when did having children become a right? It seemed so clear to her that she deserved to have a child despite not being able to afford one and that the government should now support her because she deserved to have her daughter.
Am I wrong in thinking that having children you can’t support is completely irresponsible and shitty and entitled?

I know a lot of women who want kids but are having to wait and plan and save and do it ‘the right way’ it seems unfair to them. When women like my ex friend do exactly what they want without planning and then hold the government over a barrel saying that their kids don’t have food and clothes. It just sucks like the children shouldn’t have to suffer but the tax payer shouldn’t have to pay for your unfair choices.

To clarify I have empathy for unplanned pregnancy’s no contraception is 100% but that’s not the kind of situation I’m talking about here. I’m talking about planned pregnancies.

If only those who could afford a grand in childcare every month had kids, we'd have a population crisis.

To all those talking about leeching of the state, are you opposed to free childcare? Because that's the problem here, its not about benefits.

However, personally I do think parents owe it to their existing child/ children not to have any more until they can comfortably afford it. I'd love to have a second kid, but unless my circumstances drastically changed, it would decrease quality of life for my DS, and I'd never want that for him.

But the core problem is government, not parents.

It's hard for some people to start a family - with high rents and low wages the time will never be ideal for some people as there is no option to save. I think some people just don't think things through , and I admit I am one of these people and had a few children quite quickly without really thinking through the financial implications. However we have both always worked to support them, I went back to work when they were all less than 10 months old and we worked around each other as we couldn't afford childcare. It was exhausting, at times I would cry after a busy nightshift at work and then just a couple of hours sleep but we did it because we had to. Nowadays if you're on a low income there is 85% of childcare paid for but many don't want to work and think the state should fund them to stay home.

You are so right OP. It’s disgusting the number of people who feel that the tax payer should pick up the tab for their “want”.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3338891-AIBU-to-report-her-for-benefit-fraud

There you go DieAnt. How did you miss it? There are many more if you would like to do a search. I can't be arsed myself! A few dull bints think defrauding the benefit system is fine because fraud has no impact on the money tree see...

What about people who could afford children and then their circumstances have changed which mean for example childcare is now crippling them. Eg a couple with a decent income who could afford to live and pay childcare, who then go on to separate? Maintenance doesn’t cover a months childcare bill I can tell you that now

Well, there has to be some poor bastards in society willing and desperate for the minimum (or below) wage job of wiping your arse when you're eventually sat in a hospital or care home shitting yourself.

That or the plethora of other shitty minimum wage jobs that facilitate your more considered responsible lofty existence in the meantime.

Do you see the majority of middle class educated persons taking up shitty arse wiping, toilet attending, street sweeping jobs as a life long career?

Someone has to birth us lowly types, provide no opportunities and leave us in the dire circumstances that make us need this kind of work...or you and yours would have to do it all.

I do think it's a right to have children. I don't think it is a right to have the state fund your lifestyle. The two shouldn't, but they often do go hand in hand.

I think the society we live in today has created several generations who want things now but aren't willing to save or wait for them. Including kids.

I have one child and would love to another soon but can't afford to until baby number 1 is in school, meaning I only have one lot of childcare to pay. My husband and I both work hard, have never claimed benefits and have some debt. If we want to maintain a half decent lifestyle and have a holiday we def couldn't afford another child. The system goes against us because we aren't entitled to anything but we also don't have a very high income. We are both in well paid jobs for the level of education we have but childcare and housing costs cripple us.

That sounds like I expect a hand out. I don't. I just don't think that childcare costs should be so high for full time working parents. I think that childcare should be subsidised for those who work and not for those who choose not to.

@TillyTadpole aren’t most people in that thread telling her to report but that it won’t make her feel better?

Speaking as a parent of six, I really do see the original posters point. Nobody can afford six children in this day and age in the UK but somehow you get by - I would love another child and trying to convince my husband to get on board - it is sooo difficult as he is not the best communicator/supportive person - just asked this question in another AIBU thread.
The reality is that if only rich people did have children for a single generation then things would change rapidly for childcare in the UK. The only reason the rich exists is because they have low cost labour which will be provided in the future by kids from low income families of today. Some countries with low birth rates off incentives for people to have children in normal functioning economies.
However one of the main reasons we exist is to procreate and outside of medical intervention, there is simple no way we will not want a baby at some time in our lives and money consideration become less important the older you get. I have a friend who has no children as she believes she was too old when she started to try, her advice is always have kids when you are young, it gets harder as you get older and nothing in her life can make up for that.

I think it is much more complex than you're saying. Some people have never had lives where 'saving for the future' is a concept. I have a friend who was on benefits the whole time she raised her daughters, and guess what the daughters have done? Got council houses and are on benefits.
They aren't greedy or lazy necessarily, they don't know any different. To them, that is the way they know how to parent. For them, to go to work would mean losing their benefits and free prescriptions and school meals, and not seeing their child. They wouldn't be able to grasp that some people make that choice because it seems martyr like and why would you?
There was a recent panorama programme about poverty and living ages. Poor areas have a much shorter life expectancy. On that was a man with many small children, one was only a small baby, who was dying of COPD lung disease. His illnesses were caused by alcohol, fags and shit diet. As are many of the killers of poor people.
Of course he shouldn't have smoked etc but these things are socially ingrained and often linked to class. And you could also question why they 'chose' to have lots of babies knowing he was terminally ill, knowing that neither of them will pay for any of those children. However, his partner knew she was losing him, and so children are a part of him to love, and so she will be left with them.
There are always reasons people act the way they do. People are not perfect and whilst I get your point I think you need to broaden your horizons somewhat and take into account that it takes an exceptional and self aware person to rise above the social limitations and expectations within which they are living.

you’re right, but many posters will disagree with you.

children arent a right.

I think people should have as many children as they want but shouldn’t expect the government to fund their choices . Especially if they’ve never worked or paid anything in to the system.
Universal benefit will be very tough for a few years but in the long term it will help to prevent the career stay at home parents .

I don't think it's a right, but I think it's more expensive to have a child (in terms of housing costs and childcare costs) than it should be. It's natural for people to want children and as a society we need people to have children, but if only those who could afford it had children, I think we'd have a bit of a problem, both in terms of many people feeling upset at not being able to have a family and in terms of having a massive aging population problem looming on the horizon.

and for those who can’t read, she isnt saying only rich people should have children, she is saying dont have children if you cant afford them.

why would you want a child/children to have a shit life just because you want to to fulfil a selfish desire.

Both of mine were unplanned and looking back I wouldn’t have it any other way, I was 19 both of us had full time jobs and I still wasn’t in a position to afford but we managed, plodding along, my son Was fed, loved and had a roof over his head. I’m still in the same position now both working but still don’t have enough to afford a house yet earn too much for benefits. Dcs are still cared for and loved. As long as her kids are cared for who cares if she’s moaning. Us British love a good moan (assuming of course she’s british) 😊it’s not a lie though kids are expensive to raise and not all of us have a good enough annual income.

it will help to prevent the career stay at home parents .

Most stay at home parents aren’t eligible for most benefits. They can’t get JSA because they’re not available to work. They can’t get working tax credits because not all adults in the household work. They might be able to get child tax credits for the first two children and no more but if their partners income is low enough to allow that it’s not going to be enough to support them all (were not eligible due to husband having too high an income and it’s not like we’re minted). They’ll get child benefit unless their partner earns over 60k but so would anyone else. You can’t make a living as a SAHP, it is not possible unless someone is supporting you (eg spouse).

The only way it can work is through having either a disabled child or being disabled yourself neither of which sound like a walk in the park to me. I’m sure some people do fake disabilities but I don’t think it’s half as common as some people like to imagine.

As one of these mum's who are obviously destroying their children and should never of had them because I have very little money, I agree with you in some cases, if she has crippling shopping debt etc, but I try and curb my spending, buying what we need, make sure my kids have everything they need and not always the cheapest, I only get my CHB, my husband works damn hard, can't say exact hours as they change week to week, I work 2 part time jobs and my DM helps us out massively. I never looked into childcare, I will be honest because both of my jobs start at 6pm, so my mum has them until my DH gets home. We earn enough to keep a roof over our heads, heating, electric and everything else they need. If we have enough spare money of a month, we take them for a big day out, if we have a little we go to a sorlft play etc, my DD does dance class, which i pay for, and Swimming classes that my DM offered to pay for. Once my kids are both in school I can get a full time job, until then we struggle but make do. Early menopause runs in my family, so there was no guarantee that we could have done it the other way round.

SerenDippitty

KN2212
…She got very defensive and said that they were never going to be able to afford a child due to their financial situation so why bother waiting?...

You make a lot of very valid points OP. However, this is Mumsnet and you will suffer!

A long, long time ago, we were “never going to be able to afford a child”, but after waiting quite a while after marrying we did, and then had another. We scraped through in the early days (without benefits) and eventually things got better. Got both of them off to uni in the end as well. (one small grant for SN for the younger one)

The problem is that circumstances were VERY different then. I cannot begin to imagine how couples can sensibly make this decision nowadays.

If you do the sums, there will be no more children, other than Peter Theodore Alphege, Mary Anne Charlotte Emma, Thomas Wentworth Somerset Dunstan, Anselm Charles Fitzwilliam, Alfred Wulfric Leyson Pius, and of course Sixtus Dominic Boniface Christopher.

Privilege or what? Horrible depressing times.

#ThisReallyHappened

“Since when did having children become a right?
Since the beginning of time, for all animals, human and non human.”

It isn’t a right. It is a gift. It is a want, not a need.

I don’t understand parents of large families who complain about the cost and drudgery of raising children. It isn’t rocket science to work out that having 6 children is going to cost far more than 2.

Would those saying that people shouldn't have children until they can pay for them go so far as to say that education and healthcare should also be paid for privately? Just wondering where you draw the line.

I had a reasonable paying job with amazing maternity benefit and after a long time trying no baby arrived. After deciding to go back to university to get a career I was proud of if I wasn’t going to get the chance to be a mum baby finally came!
Something about the way we are encouraged to party then build up careers in our twenties then finally settle down and consider babies in our thirties makes me uncomfortable. Babies don’t really need you to own a detached home in a good school area or be able to afford water babies or NCT classes.
My son (born on a single income family) may not have the fancy house in the fancy area we would like for him but he is very loved and every penny we make now goes to getting a better life for him. I’m so glad we didn’t ‘save and wait for the right time’ and we get to use the motivation of him in our lives to better ourselves.

How many people can actually afford to have children without any state help? Not many I presume.

"I know a lot of women who want kids but are having to wait and plan and save and do it ‘the right way’ it seems unfair to them. "

I presume these women have good incomes if they're able to save. Lots of people don't have an income that allows saving or that goes up with experience. They will ALWAYS be on a low income. Having children is a fundamental human experience and shouldn't be confined just to people with high incomes.

"We scraped through in the early days (without benefits) "

You didn't claim your child benefit? Really?