Is it a right to have Kids you can’t afford!?!

[KN2212]

I am totally fed up of listening to people complain about how broke they are after having kids. Babies and childcare are cripplingly expensive but that’s pretty much common knowledge, right?

I fell out with a long term friend of mine about a year ago. Since the birth of her DD all she did was complain about the situation she’d orchestrated.
Her and her (now ex) partner had no home of their own, low income, high debt and no savings when they decided to go ahead and have a child (though granted had been together for 7 years). The poor boyfriend busted his butt working 13 hour shifts 6 days a week in a call centre whilst they all lived in one cramped room at her parents and she complained he wasn’t doing enough. Due to her crippling shopping debts and inability to hold a job they were never going to make enough to live and knew that pre getting pregnant.

(Other friends are in similar situations, complaining about how they ‘can’t afford to go back to work’ because of childcare costs but equally can’t afford to live if they don’t go back to work!!! Come on and take some responsibility you knew this was going to be your situation.)

Whilst she was complaining over coffee one day about how the benefit system wasn’t giving her enough free money I called her out on her obvious poor planning and asked why she didn’t wait and save pre child. She got very defensive and said that they were never going to be able to afford a child due to their financial situation so why bother waiting?

It just got me thinking really hard, since when did having children become a right? It seemed so clear to her that she deserved to have a child despite not being able to afford one and that the government should now support her because she deserved to have her daughter.
Am I wrong in thinking that having children you can’t support is completely irresponsible and shitty and entitled?

I know a lot of women who want kids but are having to wait and plan and save and do it ‘the right way’ it seems unfair to them. When women like my ex friend do exactly what they want without planning and then hold the government over a barrel saying that their kids don’t have food and clothes. It just sucks like the children shouldn’t have to suffer but the tax payer shouldn’t have to pay for your unfair choices.

To clarify I have empathy for unplanned pregnancy’s no contraception is 100% but that’s not the kind of situation I’m talking about here. I’m talking about planned pregnancies.

It’s the system to blame by allowing people to pop out as many children as possible and the government handing them free money for it. hopefully that will change now they’ve brought in the two child limit but the damage is done

In principle YANBU, however everything is so utterly expensive now. If we all waited until we had homes of our own and plenty of savings, most of us would be in our 50s before we'd be able to start thinking about it. There wouldn't be many babies being born would there? Should only the super rich and the trustafarians be able to have babies?

It's the way the country works which is at fault. Why is accommodation so expensive and why aren't people paid properly for the hard work they do?

I think your friend is right. Some people will never be able to afford children without state assistance. Your friend was probably hoping that once they had a child they’d be housed by the Council and she would have received a significant increase in income from tax credits and housing benefit as a result of having dependant children.

Don’t blame your friend or others like her. Blame the companies who do not invest in their staff or pay proper wages or offer job security with real pay increases and prospect of promotion in return for hard work. Instead those companies look after their shareholders and pay disproportionate high salaries to the very top staff ie directors and senior managers - vacancies which are mostly filled by the elite and are inaccessible to anyone else no matter how hard they work.

Rights are a social construct. Yes I think as a society we should consider it as a right to have at least one child no matter whether you are rich or poor. Children bring joy and meaning to people’s lives. Sadly we live in a system where working hard and planning and being a good person don’t necessarily result in financial rewards, especially if you don’t have a financial cushion to begin with - ie rich parents or spouse. So I don’t think we should punish people who are struggling and have children anyway.

scrumplepaper I was commenting on the fact that another post said that full time nursery care cost in the region of £1000.
I never at any point said that if you didn’t have £1000 per month then you shouldn’t have children.

I don't give these often but..

Children are a right, lifestyle isn’t. My mum told me of course her standard of living went down when she had me, that’s what was expected to happen with less money coming in and we are the same.

I don’t begrudge people their children but rather a benefit system that keeps folk in take out and hair extensions when we struggle to afford any “luxuries” like a hair cut or Chinese take away...

I don't eat take out and I've never had hair extensions. I do get my eyebrows waxed once every 6 weeks or so. I don't smoke, or drink, I don't do drugs and my dad gave me my tele when he got a new one. Before that I had his old portable (which I have now passed on to DS). I don't have a goat either.

Children are expensive yes, I don't think having a baby should be bank balance tested but I do get a bit irritated when people I know complain about child benefits, tax credits etc and then have sky, a overpriced car on finance and then say they struggle with affording the food shop!

Having children to me is about making sacrifices we have saved a lot and will never claim child benefit as I would be taxed more than we would receive if I did. We don't have a fancy car, sky, meals out.

To me it's more frustrating the attitude that if someone wants something they deserve it which leads to debt and the inability to support. You can have not a lot and raise a happy family if your prepared to make sacrifices. Sadly many people seem to borrow money rather than do this which leads to an endless spiral.

Yanbu - You will probably get moaned at/some stick, but you are right.

Shopping debts and then gets pregnant... she's an idiot. Poor ex and poor child, she obviously doesn't feel she should do anything to help their financial situation.
Yes too many people start a family, want everything, and expect the taxpayers to fund their choices! About time people paid for their own choices.....but how 'unfair' some people will say.

Should add that we should really be blaming the housing crisis as well.

Also I think that as a society we should recognise that all of our citizens have a right to a basic standard of living: food, shelter, heating, clothes and family. Our society is broken and at the moment so many people are working as hard as they can and getting nowhere close to a decent standard of living. OP your example illustrates the point - your friend’s partner had a job and worked all hours but still did not earn enough. Doesn’t that tell you something about the state of the society we are living in?

The friend's partner was working all hours but the girlfriend had cripling 'shopping debts'..... now that isn't the fault of the society we live in! It is her own personal poor choices to run up crippling shopping debts. Perhaps occasionally some people could actually take responsibility for their own financial errors.

People should make sure they are in a reasonable financial position before having children, yes. They should be debt-free and with as much savings as they can manage. However, the minimum wage should be increased such that two parents in work can afford to raise a couple of children, with at least a basic lifestyle (i.e. rent, transport, sufficient money for food, adequate clothing and utilities etc). The problem right now is that parents can be in work, debt-free, and still struggling to make ends meet.

I feel like a lot of these responses are being somewhat unfair to OP. The example she gives is of a lady who not only expected her partner to pick up the slack for her own poor life choices (debt/inability to save/inability to hold down a job) but also, the government and all who pay into it. Someone attempting to guilt trip the world into feeling sorry for children for whom the responsibility lies with her, would do my head in too.

It is a completely different situation from the hundreds of thousands of hard working families who whilst they may never be able to save enough to plan comfortably, atleast attempt to behave responsibly when planning their family. This is different again from genuine unplanned pregnancy.

I too, would get very bored very quickly if listening to OP’s friend bitch and moan about this particular subject. She sounds like a prized dick.

Nicely put MrsMonkey

@mrs @aint

For the millionth time she was also complaining about people complaining about childcare costs.

FWIW, I agree.
I had 3 DCs. Each 5 years apart, to allow for nursery costs etc.
We had a good income etc, but you can't just have a load of kids without being able to afford them!
Mine are all at different schools now, so that's fun - but manageable. YANBU.

I agree with the OP. There are people who have children and expect others - grandparents and other family members - to support or buy for their kids as if that’s a right. If you have kids, you should sacrifice buying things for yourself or adjust your spending appropriately. Buying a new car isn’t a necessity when you can’t cover the mortgage.

Children are a choice and I think couples should only really have them if they can afford them, child allowance should be capped at two children and if people have any more then it is because they can afford to support themselves and not be propped up by the welfare state. One thing I don't agree with is the 'baby banks' being created similar to 'food banks' wtf if you can't afford nappies, wipes, baby milk etc then you definitely should not have kids.

@gilly

How can you "not agree" with baby banks??? What, you think newborn beautiful innocent babies should go without nappies and hungry because you disagree with their parents' choices?

I hate these threads. No one is engaging with the points that have been made - about how contraception fails. About how circumstances change. About how very few will ever be able to afford childcare without state help - although I'm sure most of the critics on this thread would be happy to take up their free hours age 3. And I'm sure they would be happy to use free state nurseries should they ever exist.

sweet.bet she dizni miss you n your cut n dried boxed off input one bit...it was pretty brutal to read.in fact,sod it.think whatchu wanna

Watchu wanna...

@beiber

Contraception does fail. Circumstances do change. We’re all aware that we’re lucky to live in a society that offers some support should these factors affect us. However the original post is not about those situations. You mentioned her referencing the cost of childcare (which I think we can all agree is far from achievable for many “working class” households), but in the example that OP detailed.. did you feel that this was a genuine concern? The ex friend had never held down a job before the child - if childcare was free and point of use and provided by angels trained by Mary Poppins herself, this particular individual in all likelihood would find an alternative reason for not attempting to atleast partially support her own children.

Again, the world of being a non-silver-spoon parent is far from easy. No one is denying that.

I have four kids, I had my first at 16, I know I know, teenage parents are useless and soooo class less, however, I can't afford to go back to work, I would love to, and Just to clarify, I don't NEED to, but I would love to, the childcare bill for three kids, school drop offs and pick ups and and three hours a day childcare would cost us £1300 a month, I can't afford that!! And why should I pay someone more than two thirds my standard wage, for my job, when I can do it myself and me and husband are a little better off? He gets marriage tax allowance, which he wouldn't, and I get the child tax credit, kids pre 2017, which although not loads, is enough for me to take them out and treat them a few times a month, £1300 in childcare is ridiculous, especially when all these family's you are posting about get it for free, well between 15 and 30 hours of it. If we got that, paid to a qualified childminder I could go back to work, pay my tax and our childcare would be free, but it never works that way for the people who want to work.

@mrs

Of course, actively planning for a child when you're in this situation is not responsible - although I might think differently is she was nearing the end of childrearing years.

I want to provide the best for my DS, including support for university, and this is why I wouldn't have another child. I think people should consider this stuff more...even middle class people who chose to just-about-manage with four kids, instead of providing a comfortable life for two. That's just my personal opinion.

But I just don't agree with the idea that you shouldn't have children until you are able to do so completely free of state help, especially when there isn't free universal childcare as there should be. This would preclude far too many people from ever having children.

And I don't agree that, just because there are irresponsible people, and those who play the system, that children should go hungry and suffer due to welfare reforms intended to "target" the parents. Tax credits lifted a million children out of poverty, and that is now being reversed with UC. Children being hungry at school is now an issue. Its just awful.

(Also think that more could be done to prevent unplanned pregnancies - morning after pill free and on demand, and semi-permanent contraception more easily available and encouraged.)

May I say without any sarcasm that I would dearly love to be in the positions of some posters here that would allow me to be so naive to the realities of life for lower income parents.

Baby banks shouldn’t exist? I understand the sentiment that they shouldn’t need to, but trust me that if you aren’t on benefits, not only can it be a struggle to cover everything comfortably on a good day/week/month, but being totally at the whim of an external system to pay out to you can be devastating. Housing benefits constantly stopping for some arbitrary reason and putting you in rent arrears, tax credit payments that you rely on and have budgeted for your weekly food shop stopping without warning and taking a week or 2 to start up again, and now the UC roll outs and all the devastation that is causing.

I’m very grateful that I am entitled to working and child tax credits, it has propped me up so I can provide what I personally prioritise for my little ones, but I can’t imagine being on them long term. I can assure you it is far from being handed an easy life for nothing; if you are entitled to money from the government at all it is because they deem that you need it just to get by. Costs of living are climbing ever higher and UC is looking like it will put an end to any semblance of comfortability for young families - is this what we want for scores of children in this country?