Email from school that I probably wasn't supposed to see - f**king livid!

[FidgetyFingers]

I requested a copy of DS2's (secondary) school record when he left there a few months ago. He has quite severe SN, NHS paediatrician diagnosed with his assessments taking place at this school.

Enclosed in the paperwork was an email from his form tutor, his form tutor for 4 years, to the inclusion manager, stating that I had been on the phone to her as I was very unhappy about detentions 'again' for minor transgressions in the scheme of things and 'that I expected special treatment for my son due to his 'SN'.

DS has severe learning difficulties with several other co morbid difficulties and never should have been in mainstream school anyway but there was no choice as I couldn't get him an EHCP.

I am so fucking angry as this proves they never took his SN seriously at all which they proved in the way they treated him!

I also found a copy of an email from said inclusion manager to all his teachers outlining DS's behaviour plan and stating that if he failed to get enough points, he would be excluded.

Same woman sat across from me in a meeting with the Board of Governors insisting that I must have been mistaken when I said that she'd told me this on the phone.

I am absolutely disgusted that such people exist and are in authority of vulnerable children .

AIBU?

I don’t think that what the teacher has said is that bad at all.

Some people don’t believe that SN or conditions like asd exist and that it’s just a way to pass excuse for bad behaviour. If only they knew what it was like to live with people in this position

Nostaples, a child can still be excluded if it's proportionate to do so. It's not a get out of jail free card.

Sophisticatedsarcasm

Totally with you on that.

Mm... really good training and classroom management skills seems like a 'reasonable adjustment', putting up with aggressive behaviour if the EHC plan has been followed does not seem reasonable at all. It does seem as though there is a conflict between the needs and rights of the SEND child and the needs and rights of everyone else in the school plus what is physically possible for the school to provide for one child. To my mind if a child cannot behave in a school without aggression that they perhaps should not be in a mainstream school. I know there is a continuum but many ASD children are perfectly capable of making choices and not behaving with aggression. In such a case are they still to be exempt from punishment for behaviours where other children would be punished? If parents, teachers, judges whoever are saying that they are not capable of controlling their own behaviour such that they are a threat to others or that they are capable of making choices but are exempt the consequences other children would have I'm not really sure how the school can fullfil its safeguarding duty to other children and staff.

*Claire tree ;
*
Her time was free? If her kid has SN how is her time free? Do you realise how much hard work and dedication goes into looking after a child with SN?
Poor 'staff' had to write statements and waste valuable time?!

Your attitude is disgusting!

The mother wanted what was best, yes she never got the out come she wanted but you know what? At least she tried!

Hmm, MissContrary but that judgement deems it is not 'proportionate' to exclude a child for hitting a TA with a ruler, punching her and pulling her hair! Schools, teachers and parents will be very worried about what does constitute 'proportionate' then!!! And also if the child isn't capable of making a choice about violence but has to remain in school then the flipside of that is that everyone else has no choice but to put up with that violence.

some of the ignorance displayed on here is shocking, and the assumption that the parent knows fuck all.and the teachers know better is a dangerous assumption to make and leads to children with SN being failed. why do we do this in our country? why do we treat parents of SEN kids so,so badly??

This is very difficult situation. Many schools are not prepared or properly funded to make and deliver reasonless adjustments for students. Kids with complex needs are often lumped together, often in bottom sets. In cases like this both the pupils and the teachers struggle. It is not fair on any of them.

Having taught some students with ASD/ADHD I can tell you that it can be exceedingly frustrating and time consuming. I always wished that I had more time and patients for them. But resources are limited, staff are over worked and management insist on punishing attainment targets for each teaching group. With the best will in the world it is difficult under those circumstances to make it work for everyone.

I can imagine those emails. I am sure I have written similar things in moments of sheer misery and frustration- when I lost half a lesson to an ASD boy who spat constantly at other children but refused to leave the classroom and called the head a prick to his face. And then teach four more lessons, write up the incident in full, phone both parents and attend a meeting about it. This happened regularly. His needs obviously weren’t being met. I tried everything suggested. But we got no backing from home. Mum didn’t want us to sanction and wouldn’t give any further help. Which must have been hard for her because she had someone from school on the phone every day.

Teachers aren’t robots. It is hard to come out of a situation like that and not be jaded or a bit cynical or frustrated. Our hands are often tied by school policy, management support and our own limitations too.

We haven't been told why he did those things though. If the school have contributed to him ending up in meltdown by not making reasonable adjustments, it's not proportionate to exclude him.

If a child is adequately and appropriately supported its far less likely they will get violent, but the support isn't there a lot of the time. Sometimes the school is crap, sometimes the school is ok but can't cope within their resources and it's the LA letting the kids down by refusing ehcps or writing woefully inadequate ones or making parents fight for an appropriate school. SEN support is a bloody shambles.

MissContrary

If a child is adequately and appropriately supported its far less likely they will get violent

Whilst this is generally true, I have had pupils with contradictory ECHPs in the same class (one says the class must be run this way for child A, the other says it must be run another way for child B), I have had classes that need to be run a third way for a child that hasn't got a ECHP but really should have one. I then have a raft of children with other additional SEND but no ECHP (and would get one as they don't qualify) and then the Lower ability NT children, mid range NT children + MAT.

Now I love my job, but there is no way in heaven and Earth that all of the needs of all of the children will be adequately met.

And it doesn't matter how many times someone here tells me that is "the law".

I know it
The school knows it
The parents know it
and all the kids know what their rights are.

The point is that its not just SEN support that is a shambles.

what is it specifically that you don't think they should have said? someone said you expected your DC to get special treatment because of their SN, but you have repeated that here, so you can't dispute it.

Surely it's obvious, Clairetree? The teacher very obviously wasn't saying OP expected her child to get special treatment because they agreed with her. It's self-evidently a criticism of OP by a teacher who had no knowledge of the fact that children with SEN do indeed need special treatment in the form of proper support and reasonable adjustments.

Someone else said that if they didn't reach a certain standard of behaviour they would be excluded, standard for every child in the country- what is your issue with that?

Again, surely it's obvious? The law on exclusion is very clear that it should be used as a last resort for children with SEN and that, before excluding a child with SEN, the school should be looking at what extra support is needed, including supporting an application for an EHCP. It isn't appropriate to apply standard behavioural expectations for children with severe SEN who can't possibly meet them: there is a duty to make reasonable adjustments, otherwise the school will be punishing the child for having a disability.

I agree with you Boney. It's the whole system around it and more. The NHS is often letting these kids down too. There's just not enough money.

I wouldn't flag this up too much, if I were you, the implications of this, if the judgement stands, are pretty horrific.

Basically, it says that autistic people cannot be expected to control their violence. The implications are teachers will not be expected to teach them because they cannot do safely, they will not be in classrooms with other children because it will be a safe guarding issue for other children, and ultimately they will be required to live out their adult lives in secure accommodation because they are dangerous.

No, it doesn't say that. Have you actually read the judgment, Clairetree? It acknowledges that some children with autism will become violent, particularly when their difficulties are not properly recognised, addressed and supported. If you have a condition which gives you extreme anxiety, means that often you do not really understand what is going on around you, cannot communicate your worries and frustrations, are in constant pain because of sensitivity to noise, light etc, and are regularly subject to bullying, then guess what, you may have a meltdown and become violent. However, if you get properly helped to understand what is going on and to express yourself, receive proper sensory integration treatment, and are protected from bullying, then you probably won't have meltdowns and will be able to cope fine with education and there will be no safety issue for teachers or other children. All too often children with autism have been excluded because no-one can be bothered to help them and it's easier to get rid of them. The judgment means that teachers and local authorities will now have to comply with their statutory duties.

This judgement has been met with equal measures of incredulity and hilarity from educational professionals.

More fool them. It's attitudes like this that parents of children with SEN have to struggle with only too often.

It is total nonsense, and is unlikely to stand.

You clearly know nothing about the relevant law if you believe this.

its tough shit on the autistic children who nobody is now legally required to accept into their classrooms, because there is a legal precendent been set that they are allowed to hit staff'

Nothing in the decision says this.

And how is a school with absolutely NO SPARE MONEY expected to give extra support to every child whose parents say they need it?

They're expected by law to give support to children who need it, but no-one suggests that that rests purely on the parents' opinion. If the school cannot meet the child needs because it lacks the necessary resources, the chances are very high that the child meets the legal criteria for requiring an EHCP - which include the fact that the child's needs can't be met from normal mainstream resources.

I don't know of any school that does not do its absolute best to support every one of its pupils sometimes in very challenging circumstances.

You're lucky, Bezm. All too many parents have to struggle with schools which are in denial about their children's needs or whose approach to those needs is to put them on illegal part time timetables, operate illegal exclusions, or simply do their best to find an excuse to ship them out as soon as possible.

I cannot believe that a child has gone through the whole school system and not received an EHCP if there is an obvious need. That just doesn't happen.

Of course it does. If children who need EHCPs could get them that easily, why do you imagine the Special Educational Needs and Disability Tribunal exists? Why do you imagine so many parents win appeals against refusal to assess for SEN - a percentage which currently stands at over 85%?

Reading between the lines, it sounds like the OP has requested an EHCP assessment, and the school have not provided the evidence the OP wanted in order for the EHCP to be given. That, again, only happens if the school believe the child does not meet the criteria.

Not true. Often EHCPs are refused even if the school fully believes that the child meets the relevant criteria. But all too often school teachers have no idea what the criteria are. For instance, I've come across SENCOs claiming in all seriousness that, as a matter of law, no child can get an EHC needs assessment unless they can show they are spending £6000 a year on their support - which is categorically untrue. Also it happens all too often that teachers don't recognise SEN, which is not necessarily their fault as their training is inadequate, but they do need to recognise that fact.

wow - #yeshecan mcsbrent.co.uk/tabula-rasa-yes-he-can/

I sincerely, hope you get the sack

o yeah, who do you think would teach my children then!

I get an inbox of job offers every day.

There are nowhere near enough teachers in the country.

partly because of such "judgments" and "laws" as we have been discussing here.

And if this particular judgement stands, there will be still fewer.

Nobody has to accept violence at work, and when teachers are forced into that position they leave, but not only do they leave, they leave with huge payouts and they leave gladly and do something better paid and less stressful, and they are not replaced.

I've left teaching once, and worked in better jobs, but was literally begged to return. I don't regret returning, because I enjoy my job, but if I stop enjoying it I will leave again, and if this judgement stands, and I might well leave, along side many others.

This judgement is ridiculous, and everyone knows it, and everyone assumes it will be overturned.

If it doesn't, it is certainly no skin off my nose.

However, think very carefully about what it means for children with ASD to be seen as not being responsible for their violence. Do you honestly expect adults to be allowed to walk around the country freely, having been brought up being told it isn't their fault, they can't help hitting people?

As a teacher, I really don't care. I won't accept it, and will happily walk out of teaching and into another job the first time this ridiculous judegment comes to fruition in my classroom

As the mother of a daughter with ASD, my blood runs cold at the thought of what it could mean for her

Dear me Claretree one you are very entrenched aren't you. Have you ever actually considered that the reason for behaviour could be due to the way you treat the child? Of course you you haven't you are so very precious yourself. Not once after proper investigation when my son was violent had the school followed his plan. Not once they had a million and one excuses mind you but not once. The plan? Of my son was becoming agitated remove as
Many people as you can (sometimes not possible) then move People back, then remove him with the minimum staff 2 at most, don't touch him unless you need to direct him then use simple touch on the side You wish him to turn. He was illegally excluded after he threatened to jump off the top of a stair case after instead of treating as instructed (and if you think all the instructions are on this post you are a real fool I have just written a summary) several teachers started shouting at him why 3 classes of children where all getting over excited and this cause a sensory over load which he tried to run way from and instead of only sending a couple of teacher after him several teachers went and all started shouting... he had nowhere to go but down. He has changed school goes to a very strict school on discipline but they are equally strict on how members of staff conduct themselves and follow instructions on care of individual children.
How many times have they had issues with my son since he started twice first on his first day when melted down thinking he was about to have a rerun of his other school apparently lasted 30 mins and he then managed to self sooth after being ignored (as in not ignored just there was no drama and he was gently walked fro the room) and the second time about 5 months in because he did not get a prize He felt he deserved again they ignored him and that time it was 20 mins.
I suggest you take a trip to a school for children with challenging behaviour and see what a calm and nurturing environment it is.

How tedious that teachers come on threads like this where parents of SN kids have valid reason to be disgruntled, always with an anecdote detailing extreme behavior (DS has never been in the aggressive, spitting, chucking chairs category thankfully), parents not interested in dealing with it, etc.

Why has this thread been derailed about violence against teachers which DS has never displayed? Is it assumed that he displayed that kind of behaviour because he has SN?

It is commonly known (although maybe not to teachers and I know NOW) that LEAs will automatically refuse to assess for EHCPs, even when his diagnosing Paediatrician recommended in writing that he get one in DS's case, and make the parent either give up or fight a lengthy, time consuming battle to get one. My LEA made the excuse twice that the school had not demonstrated that they had exhausted all avenues of support in school, and they wouldn't assess without evidence. School would rather find a reason to permanently exclude than admit that. I had to get a specialist SEN charity involved for them to hand over the info at which point they called a meeting to discuss how concerned they were about DS and a One Plan was hastily drawn up after I questioned why he didn't have one.

His EHCP then gave them x hours funding for 1:1 but they told me their policy is not to give 1:1, after years of complaints that DS would not complete work unless he had the TA or teacher beside him .

Not all schools have the best interests of their 'weakest' members at heart. It's all results driven and SN kids don't get them results.

It's disgusting.

It's spelled judgment. You should read the outcome of it. You clearly haven't because your hysterical interpretation is way off the mark. Who is 'everyone'? The people you work with and yourself who found it hilarious? My blood runs cold at teachers who find the whole thing hilarious. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

The point of the judgment, Clairetree, is not that teachers have to accept violence. What it means is that they have the same duty to make reasonable adjustments and avoid disability discrimination in relation to children with autism as they have for other children with disabilities. That means that, rather than moving straight to exclusion, they should be looking to secure the right support for such children. If they get the right support, violent conduct is much less likely. If there are still problems despite the existence of that support, it is entirely appropriate to look at more specialist education. What is not appropriate is to say that children with ASC are educational pariahs who are not entitled to the protection of the law in the same way as all other children with SEN and disabilities.

Sorry my post is all over the place.
Long story short treat SN children with respect like you would any other child (clear claretree doesn't) and visit a school for children with asd/challenging behaviour you will never seen such a calm environment.
And and the idea that a special needs parents time is cheap is the most Laughable and disgusting statement as in that poster thinks special needs are a choice of people without any other means of employment. I see it daily! I have two children with special needs and I don't have half the problems some of the parents I know do, due to the fact I am educated, a nurse, my husband is also a professional! I still actually have a job which I cling to every day and thank god I have a supportive employer. Most people I know ether 1 or both are full time carers, the only reason I am not is I actually earn enough to pay for help round the house. I have had to give up work so many times due to the poor provision for special needs and I now work part time even though I would love to work full time and it is a struggle as the whole system is set up with the expectation you don't work. And this expectation hits the poorest the most as in they can't improve their life with earning more because they really can't as their wage and benefits does not pay for any specialist child care.

I am actually for the first time in my life experiencing schadenfreude as a friend who is big in special needs ed in this area has just had their child diagnosed with Asd and she is every day saying I don't understand why can't I do this, when do x dept do that.. we have told her to Wait for fun of her own department when her child goes to school

Oh and Ps claretree1 on your no one has to experience violence at work. I am a trained nurse. Does that mean I can refuse to work with patients with Alzheimer's?, dementia? Head injury? And a million and one other reasons, You pick especially as most teachers get paid more than most nurses.

@hedgehog80

"each and every person responsible will pay for it"

Fuck. You sound particularly unpleasant.

@OP

I'm not too sure what you're unhappy about. The emails sound pretty factual and you haven't denied them being the truth.