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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Email from school that I probably wasn't supposed to see - f**king livid!

671 replies

FidgetyFingers · 15/08/2018 20:18

I requested a copy of DS2's (secondary) school record when he left there a few months ago. He has quite severe SN, NHS paediatrician diagnosed with his assessments taking place at this school.

Enclosed in the paperwork was an email from his form tutor, his form tutor for 4 years, to the inclusion manager, stating that I had been on the phone to her as I was very unhappy about detentions 'again' for minor transgressions in the scheme of things and 'that I expected special treatment for my son due to his 'SN'.

DS has severe learning difficulties with several other co morbid difficulties and never should have been in mainstream school anyway but there was no choice as I couldn't get him an EHCP.

I am so fucking angry as this proves they never took his SN seriously at all which they proved in the way they treated him!

I also found a copy of an email from said inclusion manager to all his teachers outlining DS's behaviour plan and stating that if he failed to get enough points, he would be excluded.

Same woman sat across from me in a meeting with the Board of Governors insisting that I must have been mistaken when I said that she'd told me this on the phone.

I am absolutely disgusted that such people exist and are in authority of vulnerable children Angry.

AIBU?

OP posts:
magicroundabouts · 18/08/2018 09:11

No, I don't think so. I was responding to previous posters who said they couldn't see where in the Code of Practice it states you can refer people for further information. If a parent raises concerns about their child you already refer them to the SENDCO don't you? It is no different. The Local offer/SENDIASS are set up by the council to provide advice and information on SEND within the County

HateIsNotGood · 18/08/2018 09:45

And the past few pages of posts pretty much illustrates why I am so very, very happy that mine and ds's life is no longer under the control of the 'educationalists' - the liberating feeling of being free from all the differing yet apparently still 'expert' opinions is wonderful.

LadysFingers · 18/08/2018 09:48

Pengggwn

IMO, it comes under a teacher's duty of care to a pupil, per the NUT:

"Teachers’ Duty of Care to Pupils

  1. Teachers are required to do all that is reasonable to protect the health, safety
and welfare of pupils. Their legal responsibilities derive from three sources and this section considers each of the three: 􀀀 the common law duty of care; 􀀀 the statutory duty of care; and 􀀀 the duty arising from the contract of employment....

Teachers have a duty of care to pupils which derives from the ‘common law’. The
‘common law’ is law developed through decisions of the Court as opposed to law
which has been determined by Parliament and set down in statute.

  1. Traditionally, the term ‘in loco parentis’ was used to describe the duty of care
that a teacher has towards a pupil, to the effect that a teacher has a duty to take the same reasonable care of the pupil that a parent would take in those circumstances. ‘In loco parentis’ originally embodied the nineteenth century common law principle that a teacher’s authority was delegated by a parent so far as it was necessary for the welfare of the child. A court held, in 1893, that “the schoolmaster is bound to take such care of his pupils as a careful father would”....

A breach of the duty of care by a teacher could amount to common law negligence....

Negligence could also arise if there is a serious failure to prevent harm to a child
arising from, for example, pupil bullying."

IMO, leaving a child, who a class teacher can see, is struggling in class, due to what looks like undiagnosed SEN, while the SENCO tells the parents that they won't get an EHC plan, as the child is not two years behind (when it does not say this in the Children and Families Act 2014 or the SEN CoP); is a serious failure to prevent harm.

"The Statutory Duty of Care
14. Teachers are also responsible under the Children Act which places statutory
duties upon those who care for children.
15. The Children Act 1989 Section 3 (5) defines the duty of care to the effect that a
person with care of a child may do what is reasonable in all the circumstances for
the purpose of safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the child.
16. When issues arise concerning safeguarding or promoting the welfare of children,
teachers should take into account the ascertainable needs and wishes of the
children as individuals, considered in the light of their ages, understanding and
any risk of harm....

Health and Safety at Work
35. The main responsibility under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act (HSWA)
1974 rests with employers, who have to take reasonable care for the health and
safety of their employees and others on their premises. Employers are required
to organise, control, monitor and review how health and safety measures are
managed. They must assess risks, record their assessments of risks and inform
employees of safety procedures. All schools, academies, free schools and colleges
should have written health and safety policies in place, of which all employees,
including teachers, should be informed. Furthermore, Section 2 of the HSWA
requires employers to consult with safety representatives on health and safety
matters.
36. The duty on employers includes taking reasonable care for both the physical and
mental health of their employees. This means that employers should assess the
risks to teachers of excessive workload, pupil behaviour and the conduct of other
staff.
37. All employees have a duty under the Act to take reasonable care for the health
and safety of themselves and others who may be affected by their acts or
omissions at work. Thus, teachers have a duty to take reasonable care of both
their own and their pupils’ health and safety at school (Section 7 of the HSWA)."

It is entirely foreseeable that failing to ensure that a child's SEN are assessed and addressed will impact on their mental health.

"If Child Abuse is Suspected
58. Child abuse is widely defined, but may include physical abuse; emotional abuse,
which is the persistent emotional maltreatment of a child such as to cause severe
and persistent adverse effects on the child’s emotional development; sexual
abuse, which involves forcing or enticing a child or young person to take part in
sexual activities, including prostitution; and neglect, which is the persistent
failure to meet a child’s basic physical and/or psychological needs, and is likely to
result in the serious impairment of the child’s health or development.
59. Teachers are not responsible for investigating suspected abuse but should know
to whom they should report any concerns. It is the responsibility of the
designated teachers to discuss cases with, or refer cases to, the investigating
agencies, which are social services departments and the police. All schools,
academies and colleges should have procedures, of which all staff should be
aware, for handling suspected cases of abuse of pupils or students. The school,
academy or college child protection policy should also be made known to parents."

Is failing to make reasonable adjustments for say a child's autism "persistent
failure to meet a child’s basic physical and/or psychological needs, and is likely to
result in the serious impairment of the child’s health or development."?

I would say its psychological abuse?

IMO, any teacher who says they can't tell parents about the SEN charities, is failing in their duty of care to a vulnerable child, and is clearly a jobsworth, citing "gross misconduct" - exactly the sort of teacher, parents of SEN children are complaining about!

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/08/2018 10:06

magicroundabouts

Where in that does it say that the teacher is suppose to refer to?

Lots on education authority and lots on teachers working with parents (and parents working with teachers), lots on teachers working with SENCO etc..

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 10:08

LadysFingers

That's quite a long post.

IMO, leaving a child, who a class teacher can see, is struggling in class, due to what looks like undiagnosed SEN, while the SENCO tells the parents that they won't get an EHC plan, as the child is not two years behind (when it does not say this in the Children and Families Act 2014 or the SEN CoP); is a serious failure to prevent harm.

What you are forgetting is that I am not an expert in SEND. I am not qualified to diagnose SEND. I am not qualified to countermand my SENCO's professional advice. Any concerns I have about a child are raised, first with parents and the SENCO, then, if I don't feel the concerns are being addressed, with the Head. That is the correct procedure in a professional environment. I believe that that discharges my "reasonable duty of care".

Abuse? I can't believe you can't see how hysterical this is.

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/08/2018 10:09

LadysFingers

All of that is done in school, there are reporting methods that are policy in schools for doing this.

and even the code of conduct says that schools should be referring parents to IASS, not various charities.

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 10:12

magicroundabouts

Whether or not it is different isn't the issue, but incidentally I would argue that charities/SENCO/LA are very clearly different people and bodies. You can't read a document talking about one and say it is interchangeable with the other when it just isn't.

You have said I can refer people on to bodies such as charities. I am saying I have no intention of referring people to charities I know nothing about, and would prefer to refer to my SENCO, as per my school policy, because to do otherwise places me outside my remit and expertise. Nowhere does the quotes document say I have to refer people anywhere, so it is a matter for my judgement. Please stop trying to pretend it is a statutory duty when it clearly isn't.

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 10:33

I also think this thread is a great example of why teachers get so frustrated and, yes, sometimes even resentful, when dealing with parents whose expectations of them are so far outside the parameters of their actual jobs that it starts to boggle the brain.

Things they can or might do, if they believe, in their professional judgement, that they are trained and qualified to do and that they are necessary and helpful, become things they must do (even when there is no statutory compulsion). From there, not doing so - even when it has been established that it isn't a statutory obligation on the teacher - becomes child abuse. Fucking child abuse! It is horrible to see people so removed from reality that they have lost the ability to talk to people who disagree with them without resorting to accusations such as that.

To be clear, there will be times when a parent and the SENCO\Head at my school might disagree. It is not my place to step in and undermine people in leadership roles who have more expertise than I do. If they tell me a child does not need and would not get an EHCP, I consider myself advised. It isn't "child abuse" to take on board the advice of people who are better qualified than I am myself.

JimmyGrimble · 18/08/2018 10:50

LadysFingers
So let me get this straight then ... so a class teacher, in acknowledging that their SENCO, you know, the person in school who has undertaken the most training and has a professional qualification in supporting children with SEN, might be the best person for a parent to speak to for more information ... that's now psychological abuse?
Can you not see how bonkers that is?
FWIW I am not a jobsworth. I go over and above every day to try and do the best for all the children in my care. I also acknowledge that I am not the fount of all knowledge. I will provide a listening ear and do my best to support children and parents but if there's something I don't know I'm going to refer on.

HateIsNotGood · 18/08/2018 10:58

You see, as a parent of an SEN child, I do agree with Pen really - it needs to go through the Senco (and ultimately HT) and it's the Teacher's responsibility to carry out the implementations that are agreed in the classroom.

The parent at any time can go to their LEA IAS service for advice and if the situation has escalated to exclusion (fixed or permanent) in the standard exclusion letter you know the one "...it is upsetting..." that is has been used all across the country for years actually states this.

Unfortunately, many teachers aren't as restrained as Pen in assessing their own abilities to pass their opinion and 'diagnose' SEN such as ASD and will label and pass comment on the dc and their parents when they don't 'think' a dc has a diagnosis/or is being assessed for a condition such as ASD.

Or they believe their understanding of these conditions is far greater than it actually is.

It is in situations like this that gives rise to the OPs original post - the things school staff say to each other - that it becomes upsetting. I've seen so much bullshit written about ds and me that I gave up reading most of it. It's just all there in boxes - files and files of them.

Claw001 · 18/08/2018 11:00

Jimmy I think the difficult is quite often the SENCO is not aware of Educational Law as the LA have also fed them illegal blanket policies.

All roads lead to the LA. However, if a teacher is aware that LA advice is illegal, I don’t see why they would raise this with the HT or SENCO etc.

magicroundabouts · 18/08/2018 12:51

BoneyBackJefferson

It doesn't state anywhere in the SEN code of practice that I have that teachers should be referring parents to anybody.

I was responding to your post here. It states in the Code of Practice that SENDIASS is the organisation to refer parents if they are looking for advice and support. It does not state that teachers have to do this, but that wasn't the question.

magicroundabouts · 18/08/2018 12:59

Pengggwn

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was your statutory duty to refer parents to the Local Offer/SENDIASS. I was pointing out that it isn't in conflict with school policies. The Local Offer website in my area has a whole section on guidance for schools and settings as well as for parents. Obviously any individual teacher can make their own decision, but referring a parent to the Local Offer is hardly controversial.

Claw001 · 18/08/2018 13:06

Just realised I missed the cant out of my post above.

My son attends a specialist school, it’s an independent school. They have no problems informing parents of independent help, such as IPSEA or SENSOS. They also support potential parents with the EHCP process.

I’m wondering why LA funded schools allow themselves to be kept in the dark about Educational Law? If it were any other kind of Law, criminal for example, there would be consequences.

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 13:22

magicroundabouts

It is definitely in conflict with my responsibility to follow the SEND advice given to me by my SENCO, not to attempt to go over their heads and start advising parents off my own back. I don't care whether you agree. We have our procedures - I follow them. I am not obligated to refer parents to charities. Full stop.

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 13:33

And, I should add, the claim I am countering here isn't that I canrefer people to charities. I know I am not specifically prohibited from doing so by any law, only by the policy and practice at my school that places the SENCO in that role. I am countering the claim that I must do so.

Let's forget, sometimes I am not even going to agree with the parent that an SEND need exists. Sometimes I am going to believe the issue is behaviour, or the issue is at home. How can I be legally obligated to refer parents to charities in order to get support on receiving an ECHP for their child, if, actually, I think the problem is something entirely different? It isn't a ridiculous notion.

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 13:33

*is

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 13:34

And let's not forget. Typing without due care and attention Blush

Claw001 · 18/08/2018 14:31

Behaviour difficulties is an SEN regardless of the cause.

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/08/2018 14:54

magicroundabouts

It is when posters are saying that teachers have a duty to refer parents to external agencies.

If fact it refutes several posters on here that stated that teachers should refer to charities.

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 15:45

Claw001

Well, like I say, I'm not an expert, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. There is of course behaviour that can be attributed to a SN, but there is also chosen poor behaviour.

Anyway, there is no point arguing that. People are not necessarily going to agree with one another. My point is that I cannot be expected to refer parents on for help securing funding when a) I am not qualified to recommend anything to them and b) I don't necessarily agree with them.

Claw001 · 18/08/2018 15:56

Section 20 Children and Families Act 2014 defines a child as having Special Educational Needs (SEN)

“A child is considered to have a learning difficulty if she or he:

has a significantly greater difficulty in learning than the majority of others of the same age; or
has a disability which prevents or hinders them from making use of facilities of a kind generally provided for others of the same age in mainstream schools or mainstream post 16 institutions.

Some examples of SEN are:
emotional and behavioural difficulties (EBD);
Autism, including Asperger Syndrome;
Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder (ADHD/ADD);
specific learning difficulties such as Dyslexia;
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder;
communication difficulties;
medical needs such as Epilepsy and Cerebral Palsy;
mobility difficulties.“

I actually don’t think it is your responsibility to sign post parents. It’s your responsibility to raise concerns to parents/SENCO ETC. However, you cannot have it both ways ie not agree with parents about their child difficulties. As you quite rightly say, you are not an expert and should also report parents concerns, whether you agree or not!

Pengggwn · 18/08/2018 16:01

Claw001

I always report parents' concerns. I just cannot guarantee I am always going to share them. How could I?

And yes, EBD is certainly a SEN, but EBD involves significant and sustained behavioural difficulties, where the child is deemed to respond in ways significantly outside of the 'norm'. It isn't the case that any behavioural difficulty is going to be recognised as a SEN. Suggesting otherwise to parents would be irresponsible.

Maddy70 · 18/08/2018 16:18

I fail to see what the school have done wrong tbh. They are just stating the facts

Claw001 · 18/08/2018 17:08

peng I think there is a difference between not agreeing with a parents concerns and not sharing their concern. As you quite rightly say, you may well have an differing opinion, however you not qualified to know if your opinion is correct.

A child may well have a terrible home life and also SEN. Or a great home life and SEN etc, etc. A child may well have SEN due to a terrible home life or other factors unrelated to a disability or diagnosis.

Sharing your opinion, rather than parental concerns, with other professionals rather than just referring on, can be detrimental.

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