SIL has not vaccinated my nieces

[Pittcuecothecookbook]

My baby has been booked in for her vaccinations soon. I asked my sister in law, who has primary school aged kids, about the experience and I was flabbergasted when she said she didn't get their jabs. I can't quite believe it!

When I asked why, she said the risks outweighed the pros but she struggled to articulate what the risks were beyond 'potential death'. I said that that was also the downside of not getting the jabs too! She said she was persuaded when her friend said that the jabs couldn't be undone if her kids had a reaction.

AIBU to be shocked and quite disappointed about this? I'm not looking forward to it by any means, but the eradication of many awful diseases and protection against those still prevalent is surely a non negotiable?

When her kids don't get these diseases, she'll be vindicated but that will likely be because the majority have had their jabs rather than proving jabs were unnecessary.

I imagine I'll get over this - my child will be protected - but I'm just at hearing this news.

No, I think they choose risks on what they think they can get away with.

Marking social stigma by refusing school and voluntary group participation and removing governmental financial advantages would just be a way of generally reminding selfish anti-vaxxer fools of why their choices are so objectionable.

And as Graphisto said, if airlines and theme parks started enforcing vaccination policies vacc take-up would probably go up to nearly 100% overnight.

If that leaves just a few oddballs living with their unvaccinated kids in yurts in Cornwall, society will be much better off.

Possibly. TBH I cannot tell you exactly where I was getting my info from, because it was a long time ago and I can't remember very well. There was a strange friend of my mother's who was very into homeopathy etc (my mum still is very invested into alternative health, which clouded things) who was very keen to convince me that her adult children had not been vaccinated and were fine, and of a lot of "evidence" that vaccines aren't very effective, we just think they are. I think in hindsight, I was primed a little bit to believe this, because I'd been very surprised and taken in by the natural birth movement and yet I think a lot of this is valid - many of the routine practices around childbirth are not evidence based or are actively harmful towards a physiologically normal labour - and that kind of thing had made me quite questioning towards the medical community as a whole. So I think it was quite natural for me to then latch on to the next thing which came up with scepticism, and unfortunately the next thing which came up was the decision to vaccinate my child.

I do know that I wasn't especially concerned about MMR or an autism link - IIRC that particular link was well debunked by that point - it was that my whole life I'd believed vaccination to be completely safe and effective and then suddenly I came across information about "vaccine damaged children" - I was concerned about the kind of severe (and I now know, extremely rare) allergic reactions that some people can have but I was also concerned about SIDS - which I actually only came across data about last year, that children who are vaccinated are statistically less at risk of SIDS - and auto-immune conditions, some of the additives and the way so many vaccines are given at once, I also got caught up in an idea that it was less important to vaccinate if you were breastfeeding, and I had begun to feel sceptical about how dangerous some diseases we vaccinate against are. Actually, that one did involve MMR - but also whooping cough, flu and chicken pox (I know chicken pox isn't recommended in the UK yet), although I clearly remember my mum's batty friend explaining that the problem with whooping cough was that the vaccine was making the virus resistant (!) and that people were turning up with whooping cough "without the whoop" thanks to vaccination. She also told me that vaccination only creates temporary immunity whereas immunity thanks to exposure is for life - I still don't know if this is true, but it seems moot now.

In addition, being unfamiliar with many of these diseases meant that I just didn't really have a frame of reference for how bad they were, although I appreciate now that this was something I could always have looked up. Whether it ever occurred to me to do so, I can't remember. I know that there was no way I even got near the patient information leaflets because I was frightened that if I asked my GP or practice nurse for information, that they would be angry or try to convince me and I didn't want convincing, I wanted information. In hindsight both my GP and practice nurse were utterly lovely, wouldn't have pressurised me at all, didn't have anything negative to say when I turned up with DS being much older than the usual child getting vaccinations and probably could have given me a balanced view about the risks of diseases, since they were much more likely to have come across them than any stranger on the internet ranting about aluminium. It was the antivaxxers who had made me paranoid, which is a shame. I probably could have asked my doctor for the information leaflets, but I was afraid to.

I don't have a medical background, and I wouldn't have known how to look for or read scientific journals and studies. That was something which came up later when I went to university and studied sociology, as part of which I learned a lot about validity and reading research, which I wouldn't have been aware of previously. I think a lot of parents wouldn't be aware of this stuff, and don't have a medical or scientific background.

That link! What’s at the other end is NOT scientific or peer reviewed or in any other way reliable.

I suggest MNers google the compiler, Ginger Taylor.

The science is clear cut. It says vaccinate if you can.

And the unpleasantness is predominately from the anti-vaxxers. Although PA is their preferred rhetorical weapon of choice - so much less honest.

The thing that made me start to doubt the antivax side of things was when somebody tried to convince me it was reasonable to take a letter to my GP/nurse and make them sign over full responsibility in the event my child had a reaction to a vaccine. They triumphantly insisted that no doctor would ever sign this which was "proof" that doctors know about the vaccine "conspiracy".

I just thought it was mad. I immediately saw that no doctor would EVER sign anything like that, not because they were aware of some secret conspiracy about vaccines but because it actually wouldn't be their fault if a child had a reaction to any procedure. I think that was when I started to see that antivaxxers were actually extreme in the way they were trying to tell me that the medical community were, and that it probably wasn't so black and white. However, then I felt stuck in the middle unable to access any sense.

I do think the info available is better now.

Plimmy .....May I suggest you look up each individual paper referenced and see for yourself if you’re in doubt ... or is it a simple case of sticking your fingers in your ears wrt to any evidence you don’t like the look of

The first 'study' in the link posted states

Concern has risen on the presence of the ethylmercury containing preservative thimerosal in vaccines

None of the childhood vaccines used in UK contain thimerosal.

The link between autism and vaccines, particularly the MMR vaccine, is entirely unfounded and has never been proven.

That link perpetuates anti-vaxx rhetoric and is, to put it bluntly, bullshit.

Cathmidston, those studies focus on mercury / thiomersal on autism. That link has been thoroughly debunked so I would urge you to look for more independent research sources. In any event, it is no longer present in US or UK vaccines.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/vaccine-ingredients/

I don’t need to. This list - as you will well know since you seem to be an anti-vaxxer - has grown from 60 to 151 over the last few years and has been widely debunked many times by well-qualified (and patient) commentators.

It’s exactly this sort of crap that MN shouldn’t be allowing.

I do think the info available is better now

I agree. My kids are teenagers now and back when they were having their vaccinations the internet was much more of a wild west and the medical community just wasn't following the load of conspiracies that were spawning regarding vaccines.

Some of them do some of them don’t ..and some of them simply refer to comparisons between vacvinated and unvaccinated groups ... but well done to those who managed to look critically through all 151 papers in 5 minutes

The link was debunked in the mainstream media... the film Vaxxed illustrated quite well that this wasn’t the case at all.

ALuminium is used in all injectable vaccines ... a heavy metal with a not dissimilar toxicity profile to mercury

The fact is there’s an unprecedented rise in chronic immune disorders in children as well as developmental issues. This is NOT a cut and dried debate.

It’s exactly this sort of crap that MN shouldn’t be allowing.

Thank goodness you’re here Plimmy to police any chance of intelligent debate

As far as public health goes it’s the most cut and dried issue there is. What you're saying is wrong and disgraceful.

By “mainstream media” do you mean “not barmy”?

There cannot be intelligent debate on those kind of sources. I really urge you to seek independent sources of research because you're buying into a conspiracy theory.

I think it is very useful to have these kinds of things here in order for people to be able to refute them. It would be more harmful if they were left unchallenged.

So maryhole your sources are independent and mine aren’t
But thanks fir the ‘tip’

Maybe you want to pass on the ‘just a conspiracy theory’ to Dr William Thompson the lead researcher at the CDC who was the whistleblower regarding the fraudulent data on the autism/MMR link....or is he a nut job too

This is a great website with lots of information, including on aluminium.

I really hope you'll read it with an open mind.

vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vaccine-ingredients#aluminium

I've seen more 'vaxxers' calling others idiotic, brexit voting morons than supposed anti vaxxers being unpleasant.

At least two if not more people have stated they are not anti vaxxers but simply believe others should have the choice.

It's all about informed choices really. Most vaxxers don't make one. Hence why they don't even know when their baby is protected, or how long for, or what the success rate is. Yet only the anti vaxxers are accused of being ignorant

There cannot be intelligent debate on those kind of sources. I really urge you to seek independent sources of research because you're buying into a conspiracy theory.

That should be printed on banners and pulled behind aeroplanes three times a week over Richmond, Crouch End and other centres of anti-vax idiocy, for a few years at least.

It is actually shocking, when you think that some kids CAN'T have the vaccination. Because others don't, it puts them at greater risk of the diseases, some of which can be fatal to weak immune systems.

I'd really like to thank some parents like your SiL, as six years ago some unvaccinated person gave me Whooping Cough. Not nice as an adult, and even worse for babies.

ALuminium is used in all injectable vaccines ... a heavy metal with a not dissimilar toxicity profile to mercury

Nope. Aluminum salts (not elemental aluminum) are used in some vaccines and not others. Many don't require the adjuvant effect they provide. And there's no similarity in toxicity of aluminum salts with elemental mercury.

Vaccine Adjuvants

Common Ingredients in U.S. Licensed Vaccines

Aluminum salts have been used in tiny amounts as vaccine adjuvants for almost a century in billions of doses.

Bertie the post I refuted you stated lack of info as if it were a fact

"those resources weren't available in 2008"

As soon as I challenged that you're basically back-pedalling. I do think on such an important issue it's irresponsible without evidence to claim something as fact.

tbh it does rather sound like you got most of your info from your mothers friend, or at the very least allowed her to skew how you approached any research you did.

I don't understand that at all. This is a woman with apparently no medical or scientific qualifications. Even WITH those I would never listen/give credence to just ONE persons opinion.

I suspect you probably did things like used "vaccine damage" as a search term instead of "what are the side effects of the mmr vaccine" which will affect the results returned.

Were you never taught until going to uni any kind of critical thinking? To question people's agendas?

As a non-medical person yourself, why did you think the Drs, nurses, midwives, hv etc would not be good sources of information?

See that's why I think we need a public information campaign on this. Where it's explained that Drs etc aren't just blindly advising to vaccinate just because it's their job! That they have many years of education & training that not only included the information as it stood at the time of their training, but also taught them how to keep up to date with the latest discussions and information.

My then GP when I was considering the mmr for dd had read and researched wakefields supposed "study" and was as a result able to confidently say it was nonsense!

Cath - I'm recovering from a migraine so not at this time exactly feeling like trying to read swathes of research. Assuming you have read it - Who conducted the research? What are their qualifications & experience? Who funded it?

Those are the key questions I'd want answered before reading it.

Basically - anyone can fund or undertake research - doesn't mean the outcome is accurate or unbiased.

I don't think it's so bad on MN as it is on other sites. Mention vaccination on reddit, for example, and you'll have an entire swarm of posters on your comment crowing about how intelligent they are because they have never possibly questioned any vaccine ever and how stupid people who (gasp) have questions must be.

misscontrary indeed
I don’t usually post on these threads because of what you’ve just described..and I’m sure I’m not alone, but today I’ve just had enough of the self righteous nonsesnce spouted against anyone who either questions vaccines or agrees with the right to chose.

For those anti vaxxers who still think a vaccine isn't very effective, I hope your child never contracts Polio. Thanks to vaccines we no longer have smallpox. But I guess they think this is 'coincidence'!