To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

LonelyStranger Agree with you once we start policing women's clothing we are no better than the countries who force women to wear certain garments.

YANBU that western clothing conventions can be as oppressive as muslim clothing conventions.

Agree and not just clothing but bodily presentation in general, not to mention the actual cost to women financially and the time spent on making women ‘presentable’, it may be said that’s a choice but look at what happens to women who don’t conform? The death threats to Mary Beard for example because she doesn’t dye her grey hair. The whole of the way in which women present themselves is constantly policed by the media, online, by men, and even by other women.

Heels:
As other posters have said many workplaces require them formally, others informally. My gran had deformed feet from wearing heels, my mother has to wear high slippers because her tendons are permanently shortened, she literally cannot walk barefoot. They also affect the spine. They restrict movement and thrust out the buttocks so present a particularly sexualised version of ‘womanhood’.
uk.businessinsider.com/podiatrist-explains-how-high-heels-destroy-feet-jackie-sutera-2017-5

Make-up:
If you don’t wear make-up you’re likely to miss out on a lot of jobs and be paid less. Women who wear make-up do better at interviews and tend to get paid more.
metro.co.uk/2018/06/06/women-wear-makeup-get-paid-work-7608932/

Chest-binders:
On the rise among young girls, numerous general health risks as well as risks to development of young women’s bodies.

janitorqueer.com/2016/06/21/28-risks-of-chest-binding/

Body shaming
Too fat, too thin, wrong shape, breasts too big, too small and so on…impact of body shaming on young girls relate to self-confidence, eating disorders, mental health problems. . There has been a 68% rise in girls under 17 self-harming and linked to body image.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/23/stress-anxiety-fuel-mental-health-crisis-girls-young-women

www.teenvogue.com/story/most-women-body-shamed-before-age-fourteen

womeninhealthcare.co.uk/inspirational-women/the-dark-side-of-social-media-eating-disorders-and-body-shaming/

Hair removal:
A model who appeared in an advert in which she displayed hairy legs received rape and death threats
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/instagram-model-hairy-legs-rape-threats-arvida-bystr-m-a7987496.html

Plastic Surgery for women:
The rise of selfie/Instagram culture linked to rise in plastic surgery for young women
www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11885893/Selfie-surgery-how-young-is-too-young-to-have-cosmetic-work.html

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-island-contestants-cosmetic-surgery-demand-increase-megan-lip-fillers-botox-a8433401.html

Consequences of not colouring hair:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/25/mary-beard-long-grey-hair

I think there are lots of different arguments going on here which is a bit confusing. I think it depends whether you're talking about the niqab/burka in general (including other countries), or whether it should be allowed in the UK. My thoughts would be:

Do I like the niqab in general: No I think it's oppressive to women. However that doesn't mean ALL women who wear it are oppressed

Do I think it should be banned in the UK: No as I think people should be free to make their own choice

Do I think it's okay for Boris Johnson or others to discuss the niqab, including saying they are not keen on it: Yes absolutely

Do I think it's okay for Boris Johnson to compare people to letterboxes and bank robbers: No he is a twat (and a clever self-serving twat moulding himself after Trump)

What about the Jewish sect (women wear face covering too)? And what about the Sikh women who wear what looks like the headscarf worn by Muslim women? Should turbans worn by Sikh men come into the ban too? Where does it end? Who has the right to continue to outwardly represent their religion? How do you decide?

1. What is "the Jewish sect"?

1. Turbans or headscarves do not - as far as I know - hinder social interactions.

1. There are very few countries (well, no country) that uses Sikhism or Judaism as a reason to legally force women to cover up. Especially not their face...

1. Turbans or headscarves do not - as far as I know - hinder social interactions.

At least not inherently. They do not obscure the identity or the facial expressions of wearer.

Disappearing but what do you think about the question? I lived in a Muslim area for years, and I had a neighbour who now and then appeared in a Burka. I asked her about it and it turned out a relative gave it to her as a present. She only wore it if she'd missed a salon appointment, she was more worried about being seen without her hair done or her legs unwaxed than being singled out for wearing a burqa.

Oh sorry you're right Dottier I didn't really answer the question. I'm not sure ... I think in Western countries: probably yes, some types of Western dress could be considered as oppressive as the burqa/niqab, as both are optional but women may feel culturally obliged to wear them.

Whereas in the strict Muslim countries where the burqa/niqab is enforced: No I think this is far worse than thinking "I should probably wear heels"

@HereForTheLaughs a burka is the most restrictive of all - it is an abaya - a high round neck, full sleeved, floor length loose (usually black) cloak. A burka has a further head piece that covered the whole head and face (mesh opening for sight).

I live in the middle east. Niqabs I can still pick out facial expressions from, burkas create a further divide, ime.

Maria Haredi sect.

Ah yeah, I was initially wondering whether you meant that Judaism in general was a sect that "did" this. It's not common for Haredi either as far as I know... And - more importantly - it's no legal requirement in any country because of laws based on ultra orthodox / Haredi Judaism...

The burka isnt common in North or East London where I've lived. It seems to be newer UK residents. Those who are third/fourth generation here generally wear full make up, western clothes & cover their hair with coloured or black scarf. I don't think it's ok to justify burkas as 'our faith's necessary modesty' (often what men of that faith say) . Faith surely is about more than your clothing. You can be 'modest' without being totally covered in black. It just smacks of control & lack choice , which makes me uncomfortable. As did an employers 'nude tights, 3inch heels, hair up, full make up,' dress code for reception.

School uniform oppresses children.

School uniform oppresses children.

And again disproportionately affects young women, look at schools where skirts are being banned, so basically girls' right to express themselves is the one being restricted.

Just want to add that the niqab isn't necessarily black...(which doesn't have an impact on my opinion but the colour seems to be mentioned quite a few times on this thread).

There are colourful niqabs, white wedding niqabs etc...

While we can all choose from a wide variety of clothing available, it is notable that men don’t usually choose shoes/clothing that is ridiculously uncomfortable or severely limits their movement or activities.
Why do some women seem to be so keen to adopt clothing that hobbles them?

School uniform wasn’t enforced by the taliban (who took all girls and women out of schools and universities and enforced the burqa as it is an effective tool of oppression fir women as a class ).

The burqa is in no way equivalent to high heels or school uniform ffs although you could argue that headscarves/ and conservative dress do have some equivalence with high heels and mini skirts. They are all about the male gaze.

I had neighbours who wore white robes and covered their faces -except eyes- with a black scarf. I think they were Saudi. Nice people.

School uniform is enforced by instances with authority over children and greatly restricts the freedom of parents and children to have children dress appropriately and as they please.

If school uniform is an accepted part of U.K. society, than so must the burka be.

YABU. No one is compelled to wear high heels, no, not even someone the sex industry.

School uniform doesn’t cover the face!

School uniform is required to be worn because it reinforces school identity.

Oh yeah, and it definitely does not cover the face!😂

I thought the point was that some employers WERE requiring their female employees to wear high heels until they were told it was unacceptable. So, not just in the sex industry.

Twisting yourself into knots to defend the indefensible

If school uniform is an accepted part of U.K. society, than so must the burka be. This place is mad sometimes.

Not really as most people don't wear them and there tends to be no compulsion and most of us have to run for a bus so wear flat shoes and comfortable clothes.

"Imam Taj Hargey, from the Oxford Islamic Congregation said BJ did not " go far enough' in his remarks. He branded the burqa a 'hideous tribal ninja-like garment' and said its has 'no Koranic legitimacy'."