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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

529 replies

malificent7 · 08/08/2018 12:51

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

OP posts:
Earthmoon · 08/08/2018 14:02

I agree with op. Why not given women the choice to wear what they want. Soon enough everyone will be forced the same uniform, other wise. I personally believe there are more women wearing it by choice than thoes who are forced. Its sad that instead of offering more help and support to women who are forced, we demonise women who want it. How many more rights are people willing to give up just because someone else is harmed by it. Why not put in extra support to help thoes suffering?

Topsyshair · 08/08/2018 14:05

He didn't ridicule Islam.

Nowhere does it say that Muslim women have to go around with a large piece of material draped over the head and face so that they can only just see our.

Pippylou · 08/08/2018 14:06

I once had to assess reception staff and there was a make up and dress code and I was pretty uncomfortable with that...

HonkyWonkWoman · 08/08/2018 14:12

What I find ridiculous is that women in backward countries who are forced the wear a Burka are trying to fight against it and modernise.
Yet! Shamefully! women living in this country, who are free, are choosing to cover themselves from top to toe.
Women should stand together against male oppression!

ppeatfruit · 08/08/2018 14:14

I heard a Muslim woman on the radio saying that those articles of clothing are nothing to do with the Koran (most Muslim women don't wear them). but to do with the traditional beliefs of some of the governments and men of their particular country.

thurmanmerman · 08/08/2018 14:19

@bestoftimesworstoftimes I was thinking of that cartoon this morning whilst listening to the news - thanks for posting it.

strictorth · 08/08/2018 14:20

Do you know that they are being forced, or are you assuming?
I am Jewish, and people may think that I am being forced to wear a skirt and long sleeves in the heat. I am not. It is my choice. No man is forcing me to do anything.
Perhaps Muslims who cover up also do so from their own choice?!

HereForTheLaughs · 08/08/2018 14:21

OP - YANBU at all. I wouldn't limit it to clothes either,I'd go as far as saying that the vitriol the media churns out on a daily basis with regards to women's bodies is just as oppressive.

Can we also clarify the terminology being used in this thread?
A burka is a non body-con full length jacket type/coat from M&S.
A hijab is a headscarf, covering hair only (the same way a nun covers her hair).
A niqab is the piece of cloth attached to a hijab to cover the mouth and nose, creating the aforementioned "pillar box" look.

The niqab is NOT a religious requirement of Islam , it's actually something that has been borne out of Middle Eastern culture as opposed to religion. I personally have no problem with women wearing a burka or a hijab, but do think that wearing a niqab is unnecessary in the Western world at least, mostly from a safety perspective (I only need to be able to see someone's face, not their body or hair).

Twistella · 08/08/2018 14:23

What Boris said "letter box" and "bank robber" publically ridiculed the holy beliefs of Islam

how? afaik its not even part of the Koran

Twistella · 08/08/2018 14:24

@strictorth why does Judaism require this ? and the wigs?

strictorth · 08/08/2018 14:39

@Twistella There are a few reasons.
I don't want anyone besides for my husband to look at me in a sexual way. So, instead of saying well I'll assess each outfit as I buy- there are rules. Rules like no showing cleavage, close to thighs etc. Each individual decides if they will do the minimum, or, as many do, make the boundaries stricter. I will only wear a top with a neckline until my collarbone, and sleeves past my elbows. Skirts that fully cover my knees in all positions, and tights. I think these boundaries are perfect for me- although many are even stricter than me. This way there is not a chance in the world that anyone will look at me the way I don't want them to.

strictorth · 08/08/2018 14:46

@Twistella
Sorry pressed post too soon.
Hair is covered once women get married as this part of them is only for their husband to enjoy. Although some women do shave their hair and always keep it covered even at home. And it doesn't have to be a wig, it can be any kind of hair covering.

Earthmoon · 08/08/2018 14:53

@HonkyWonkWoman, I disagree with your statement of women should stand against male oppression. We should stand against all oppression. I see this new ban as oppressive, forcing women to stay at home just because of what they are wearing. You may not see it this way, but women who believe its part of their faith, are effectively been told they not welcomed outside unless they remove it. This will also do more harm to most women who are oppressed. As it just gave oppressive men more power. I can see lots of men saying you can't leave the house anymore.

Rebecca36 · 08/08/2018 14:58

You've made some very good points.
People should wear what they want to wear.

Oblomov18 · 08/08/2018 14:59

Disagree. Totally. Wearing heels, or not, is a choice. I wear them occasionally for going out to a party, say, and love them.
To me the comparison to the burka is non existent. Non comparable.

BloodyDisgrace · 08/08/2018 15:02

No, I don't think high heels/short skirts etc are as oppressive as a burka. You don't get penalised by "moral police" for not wearing high heels, you do get some sun for Vitamin D production (unlike in cases when a woman is completely covered), and I never heard of high heel wearers not being able to go to swimming pool/hairdresser. Western culture has its patriarchal bs, limiting women's behaviour/putting pressure on them to look certain way, but never as much as the Islamic one.

I think to equal these two is a bit of rhetoric for the sake of having an argument, but I don't condone what BJ said or support any bans.

noeffingidea · 08/08/2018 15:32

If I had gone into a shop I could have chosen a bikini or a one piece with a low cut front and high cut legs that would have shown off half my arse
You should try Tesco then. I've never had any problems buying swimming costumes there that I can swim in without showing my breasts or my arse. My daughters swimming costume comes from Sports active, it has little shorts and a high top.

Topsyshair · 08/08/2018 15:41

Honestly we might as well all just wear uniforms like in the handmaids tale.

Honestly I see nothing whatsoever wrong with western clothing.

I like fashion and colourful clothing, I don't dress to look sexy although I might have done once upon a time.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 08/08/2018 15:45

I hate burka bashing , hate it with a passion

It’s sexist and hateful

It feels like people want to pick on Islam
And they select who they see as the weakest area (women) and target them

They pretend it’s because they think it’s patriachal. But it’s bullshit , it’s hate and fear

If (and it’s a busy g IF) the way these women dress will change THEY need to lead it . Not us

Topsyshair · 08/08/2018 15:50

You can't really blame people for feeling a bit, I don't know, nervous of a full face covering.

Round here you get lads on bicycles and mopeds riding round with bandanas tied around their faces, I find that rather intimidating and it makes me nervous. I'm nervous of motorbike helmets.

It's perfectly natural to want to see someone's face, it's human nature and we read a lot by people faces.

You don't really hear people going on about headscarves.

MariaMadita · 08/08/2018 15:53

How about this?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fire

Short quote from Wikipedia:

Complaints were made that that Saudi Arabia's "religious police", specifically the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, had prevented stopped schoolgirls from leaving the burning building and hindered rescue workers because the students were not wearing correct Islamic dress and, possibly, because they lacked a male escort. As Hanny Megally, Executive Director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch put it, "Women and girls may have died unnecessarily because of extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code. State authorities with direct and indirect responsibility for this tragedy must be held accountable."

Being forced to wear heels is oppressive.

But I can't think of a single country that legally requires women or girls (!!) to wear them.

Professional or social pressure may obviously still be a form of oppression.

But I don't think that the severity and scale are comparable... Would anyone try to prevent women from leaving a burning building because they weren't wearing heels?

Or tell them that they had to keep wearing them whilst they were trying to escape a burning building??

(Btw, I'm putting the burqa, niqab and other legally required coverings - even if they don't cover the face - in the same category...)

I haven't read the whole thread.

MariaMadita · 08/08/2018 15:55

I obviously see that this is a difficult question of cultural standards (most countries have some laws about people's stage of dress / undress...)

But I personally still don't think that this is comparable...

Gaspodethetalkingdog · 08/08/2018 15:55

It is sexist - the men wear what they want, it is to keep women isolated from normal U.K. citizens.

I cannot understand in 2018 people go along with all this Iron Age nonsense.

High heels - have been around for years - people’s choice to wear them a pathetic comparison

Nutkins24 · 08/08/2018 16:08

I agree op. I’m sure some women do choose to wear certain western style clothing and items because they think or know that’s how men want them to look. We know that many women choose to wear the burka. And if the eventual aim is to please men why is one acceptable and one not? Women being literally forced to dress a certain way is not acceptable but how does anyone actually know when this is the case?

BloodyDisgrace · 08/08/2018 17:29

As to "pleasing men": ok, if you think some western woman is putting the heels on for the sake of her man, then how a Muslim woman covering herself so that the only man who sees her is her husband is not "pleasing the man"?

And religious "modesty" is far more oppressive than secular "immodesty", imo.