To be annoyed at DS being excluded from Summer club?

[ThatsSoFetch]

I booked DS age 9 into a summer football club - the type that the flyers are put in their bags every school holidays. Paid for the entire summer 2 days a week. Ive just had to collect DS from his 4th session there - he has been excluded for the remainder of his sessions.

They say he pushed another child.

Ive spoken to DS and he says the other child has been continuously bullying him all day and little was done about it all - indeed the pushing incident happened when they apparently all collectively went to the toilet together and DS was lined up by staff next to the child who continued to call him, in front of staff who did absolutely nothing but say to stop name calling - not separated them whatsoever, kept them stood next to each other.

DS has become so frustrated at it - over 3 hours of bullying - that he pushed the child who then pushed him back.

DS has been excluded for apparently being violent in pushing the child. Apparently the other child has been excluded too - for bullying and also being violent.

Ive spoken to DS who is absolutely beside himself. He knows what he did was wrong but said to me he had reached the end of his limit and that nobody was helping him, despite him repeatedly telling the adults.

Im absolutely furious at the staffs mismanagement of the entire situation.

Ive called and spoken to the manager who said that their policy is not to separate children who have/are falling out but that they exclude instantly for any BULLYING or violent behaviour. They couldnt answer why they didnt exclude the child when he was bullying before it reached a point where DS just couldnt take any more.

I wont in any way try to justify what DS did - he did wrong - but what I dont get is why I receive a phonecall asking me to collect him moments after he pushed the child, yet the child was permitted to bully my child for over 3 hours.

AIBU in my view of how they handled the situation?

This seems OTT. To exclude. For all sessions.
Plus, to choose not to address it at the basic stage, of separating, seems odd. Of course it will then escalate if you choose not to address the basic stage.

Generally very poor.

What seems to be an issue here is that the holiday clubs are being run by young adults without a teaching background but parents are expecting them to control the children as if they were teachers at school.

If you were a 20 year old being paid minimum wage to coach football in the summer break would you want to get involved in disciplinary matters? No, your job is to show kids how to set an offside trap. Those holiday clubs understandably kick out troublemakers.

If the kids can’t behave, or respond to verbal taunts with physical aggression then they need to be in an environment that’s staffed accordingly to deal with them. There are plenty of holiday clubs run by teachers looking for a bit of extra cash and they might be a better fit for OP’s DS.

Taking the positives from this, OP’s DS knows he’s done something very wrong and will have learned that there are consequences if you take physical action. He’s only 9, it’s a good lesson to learn before he gets to secondary school

Well nobody likes dealing with discipline issues but it doesn’t sound like they made an effort to try and resolve things before hitting the nuclear button. There should be someone over the age of 20 who could help out in this kind of situation.

It sounds very extreme to me!!! 9 year olds aren't perfect - and to exclude for single incidents of name-calling and pushing seems very OTT, especially as they hadn't tried to sort it out earlier. My DS (10) has ASD and ADHD and has always struggled at school and outside, in team situations - and often with NT boys all behaving inappropriately, it's hardly unusual at that age. Interestingly, my DCs have always attended a (free) summer thing run by the local council for a couple of hours each week, and they manage my DS brilliantly - if an argument starts with another boy they quietly separate them and keep an eye - no problems (though I wouldn't try him at anything longer than 2 hours due to his SEN). Sounds as though your club is staffed by inexperienced people who can't cope with normal 9 year old behaviours - but it's a shame your son now has no fun club to attend

I don’t know that I have ever seen a club advertised as run by teachers in my area. There may well be but not necessarily in a convenient location or times for us. In my case I’m not using it as a nice diversion for my DD in the holidays but as childcare option to ensure my DH and I can work. Saying that the staff shouldn’t have to deal with discipline problems is a bit of a cop out. I’m paying someone to take care of my child - it’s the primary function. Learning a skill or sport is secondary to this responsibility. The fact that the playscheme chooses to employ students / young people is a choice they make and doesn’t excuse them from this undertaking. There’s nothing stopping them from training their staff at the beginning of the season either to at least give them some basic tools ( like separating the offenders)

I’m paying someone to take care of my child - it’s the primary function
Indeed. Clubs that are for 2 hours a day or activities that require a parent to be present are not childcare.
Clubs that are 9-5 in holiday time are childcare and should function as childcare. Choose dancing, drama, sports or crafts according to your child's interests but they need to be properly cared for as they are children.

The clubs do take care of the children, but you can't expect them to cope with troublemaking children the same way a school does.

If kids don't behave the club is well within their rights to say "I don't want your child here anymore". The 99% of children that can behave shouldn't have their fun interrupted by the 1% that can't.

Schools have to deal with badly behaved children, privately run holiday clubs don't.

Sounds like a rubbish club to me. Any childcare club whether it's breakfast club, after school club, or holiday club should be run by enough qualified adults capable of dealing with kids' problems. At the first sign of any trouble they should step in and deal with it. Lazy people.

The 99% of children that can behave
Met any children recently?!?

They hadn’t tried anything before kicking him off the course. They could have

• separated them
• spoken to them together
• spoken to them separately
• warned them
• made them sit out for a fixed length of time
• contacted parents
• asked parents to meet 15 minutes before the following session the next day
• shortened their next day

Instead they told him that after one push he can’t come back for the whole summer. I really think that’s poor.

No they aren’t teachers and don’t have necessarily lots of experience of kids and managing behaviour but they apparently tried nothing. They’re going to end up with no kids at all by the end of the summer. They should have someone there who can assist them if they can’t manage a push and some verbal comments to the extent that they make zero intervention.

They should have someone there who can assist them if they can’t manage a push and some verbal comments to the extent that they
make zero intervention.

They have managed it (although not to people's taste)

They’re going to end up with no kids at all by the end of the summer.

This one incident probably ensures that they will have children till the end of the summer and they will be the ones that behave.

Met any children recently?!?

Yes, and most children know how to behave.

If they know the boundaries of what's acceptable and know what will happen if they overstep those boundaries children behave remarkably well.

But the boundaries can be put in far earlier and at a far lower level to have the same deterrent effect.

You could say that every time a child pushes another they get an immediate permanent exclusion from school. Or arrested and put in a young offenders institution. Or every time you speed your car is crushed and you are sentenced to 10 years in prison. It would still be a response and a deterrent but it would not be proportionate.

If he was told the first time it happened “you are NOT allowed to push - go and sit on that chair for the next half hour” (or whatever) then others would be deterred from that, and he would learn from it. And if that wasn’t enough then it should escalate.

Yes, and most children know how to behave.
Most children have at some time called another child a name, taken something that isn't theirs, or not listened to instructions. No child is perfectly behaved all the time.
Anyone running an activity club needs to know how to deal with all kinds of bad behaviour, in a proportionate way.

But this isn't school and it's not about long term behaviour management.

At school you have to put up with badly behaved children in a group and teachers are great at managing it appropriately, they get a whole year to influence behaviour.

This is a couple of weeks during the summer when parents have paid for their children to play football. If you can't follow the rules and don't know how to behave go somewhere else.

Why should the staff waste time with troublemakers when they should be playing football with the rest?

When you're paying money you shouldn't have to.

Having thought about this some more (yes I have nothing else to do) part of the problem could be that the OP sees the club as being childcare and the club sees itself as being a football/sports club.

DS has learnt an important lesson, at very little cost:
life is unfair.

the OP sees the club as being childcare and the club sees itself as being a football/sports club.
As I said upthread, if a summer club is running e.g. 10-2 or parents have to be present - it's an activity.
If it runs 9-5 then it's setting itself up as childcare.

As I said upthread, if a summer club is running e.g. 10-2 or parents have to be present - it's an activity.
If it runs 9-5 then it's setting itself up as childcare

I’m not sure that’s the case - it’s open to interpretation.

For instance, our local cricket club run a series of days n the holidays for kids - full days, but they definitely don’t see themselves as child care. If a child misbehaves, they have to leave.

I’m a cub leader, and sometimes we run a 5 day camp in the summer holidays. But again, we definitely don’t see ourselves as holiday childcare, and if a child was persistently bullying or violent, we would ask their parents to pick them up ( and expect them to do so even if they are st work).

So I agree it may be that the club see themselves as an activity, not simply childcare. It’s surely up to the club to decide, not the parent.

budgiegirl I couldn’t agree more.

My 8 y.o. DS is currently at a holiday club at his school, run by a couple of the teachers including the head of sport and adult numbers made up by a few overseas gap year students that help out at the school.

This is childcare and I expect them to look after DS as if he was at school. If there are problems I expect them to deal with it. It costs me somewhere north of £65 per day.

He also does the odd day at cricket/rugby/tennis/swimming camps. They are staffed by coaches, if DS misbehaves I fully expect to be told he’s been PNG’d and he knows that. They are a lot cheaper.

Importantly he knows that any punishment he gets at holiday club will me multiplied by a thousand when he gets home.

Guess what? He knows how to behave and has the confidence to ignore idiots around him.

What so many people seem to miss is that if they think it’s childcare, they need to do the same amount of due diligence as if they were choosing a childminder or school and see exactly what they’re getting.

OP could have found out that the football camp was staffed by youths and had a zero tolerance approach to bad behaviour if she’d looked.

She didn’t and is now complaining.

You reap what you sow

Agree with others, my job is organising term time & holiday sports coaching. Our coaches are fully qualified to teach the sport, it takes some years & lots of hard work to get their qualifications and they have to keep their dbs, first aid and other qualifications continuously up to date. We know that people use our clubs as childcare during the holidays but that is not actually the aim of the clubs, they are not babysitters. If children are badly behaved it is dealt with on the spot but if it continues and a child is spoiling it for others we will say they can’t come back. We are not school & it is not our job to teach children how to behave themselves. If children are naughty or disruptive we are well within our rights to say they can’t attend.

My DDs dance school offers day sessions during the holidays ( 10-4) and I’m very clear that the purpose is to have fun and do some dance. The holiday club my DD attends runs at her school ( is promoted somewhat by the school) - for 2 weeks and then moves to another local school for 2 weeks. It offers extended hours 08.30 -17.30 and a variety of activities sport, drama, art. It is run well and I’m not complaining but I pay for the privilege and I am very clear about the difference between the 2 schemes.

All I have to say is sympathies and YANBU. I had a similar experience at an activity at a similar age, cracked after bullying and retaliated...organiser blamed me, as the bully was 'disadvantaged' but I should have known better because I had a naice accent. Said accent made me relentlessly bullied throughout school. Your poor DS.